Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Changes at SCHRS |
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Scooby_simon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 19 Jun 06 at 11:54pm |
Bob, What we are trying to do is bring the SCHRS rule up-to-date as much as is possible in a fairly short timescale and have it in a state to re-present to the ISAF in the Autumn. We can only make so many changes this year. These will be (we hope) to correct some of the bigger holes in the rule. We are already looking at "righting moment" and including this in the rule. This will help both the 15 (7 foot 4 wide ?) and 18 (7 feet 6 wide), it will also help both as the hiking helmsman will be factored in too. This should improve both numbers for the 15 and 18. Other factors could also be considered for the rule in the future as well. Perhaps you could have a think about what you think the SCHRS for the 15 / 15 Sport might be and let me know (e-mail address above). Will you be at Marconi for the ECPR, Maybe we could have a chat then.
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catmandoo ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 545 |
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what about the unjust treatment of single handers , John pierce with his stealths has proved that the single handed version competes with the two man version on equal terms , see recent stealth championship and last years event , neither dominated racing when racing on equal handicap and racing was fair , yet under SCHRS the single handers would have recieved a 4% penalty and wouldn't have had a look in , this clearly demonstrates the formulas inability to rate single handers against double handers. The dart 18 is another example , it allows both to race on equal terms and no advantage to solo version , yet schrs penalises 1% , plus has a dart 18 solo ever won a nationals , which you would expect if its SCHRS therotically faster. you get the 4% difference above in stealths because of the kite , but how many octopus,s do you know sailing solo !
There is a problem though with boats like A class which are in such an extreme performance envelope ie extreme overpowered and rockets in light winds and not so when it rises, but other solo boats , even with kites are more all rounders.
and what about weight of helm , I see it raise its head elsewhere and get little response , it gets even worse in a solo boat where a portly helm can be nearly 50% over his rated weight , I know one !
Edited by catmandoo |
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Scooby_simon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
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Catmandoo, I assume your comments relate to the event a few weeks ago at Mumbles, was this not a light wind (<15kts) affair ? - I’d wager if the wind had been 20+ all weekend the results would have been different. Also what was the “Skill spread” over one and 2 up boats ? For this revision of the rule (it will be an iterative process over time), we have limited time as the proposal has the be infront of the ISAF in the Autumn (and we all have day jobs too!) and we are trying to address some of the larger problems. We are adding a “righting moment” to the rule which WILL make things fairer as a first step. It also takes considerable time to “test the rule”. We’ve also had diverse comments regarding the ratings of various boats. Most cry foul that the A class has been running on an unfair handicap for ages (every A class should turn up to events wioth an SCHRS stamped Measurement certificate). People (a certain Dutchman for one) also claim that the F16 single handed is an A class eater (take at look at that Cat sailing forum…. ), but I also believe that single handers get a bit of a raw deal (I for one “run out of hands” when it’s windy); this should be improved by the “righting moment” component of the rule as the lower weight of a single handed boat (only one crew) will offset by the lower righting moment of only one crew trapping / hiking. The A class also claims to be sailable / controllable / race-able in loads of wind)anyone send the pictures / film from the worlds a year or so ago in NZ?). So who does one believe? As I’ve said, we are working on Macro changes to the rule (Righting moment) for now and then we can look at other changes in the future. I do not believe we can “fix” the SCHRS rule in one go. I for one am in for the long run as I believe in SCHRS, I also believe it needs to change and that is why I stepped up and took on the Job. Please keep the feedback flowing, but if you can also propose solutions to the problems, it will make out jobs easier. Now back to the day job…… |
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pdwarren ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 14 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 23 |
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Mumbles was mostly light wind. The last race on Sunday was up to consistent twin trapeze weather, and it's true that the first two boats round the windward mark were 2-up. Geert and John P on the other Blade stuck it in on the first downwind leg and we (the other 2-up Blade) went on to win - but not by much. For the other races, the 2-up boats were placing mid-fleet so there's definitely a point at which the weather favours the extra weight. Paul |
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Sprint Bob ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 314 |
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Simon Yes, I'll be at the East Coast Piers Race. Cheers Bob |
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Scooby_simon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
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OK, Perhaps we can have a quick chat over a pint on Friday night. I'll be there late AM / early PM. |
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SX-ed up ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Apr 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10 |
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Simon, You'll have problems finding a rule that works across all wind strengths, light boats will do well in less wind but wider heavier boats will be powered up later but will stay powered up longer. Here's a starting point for a righting moment factor:- Boat Weight * 1/2 beam + (number of crew * beam + number of trapezes *0.9) * crew weight. The first part is the righting moment of the boat itself, we should really use the distance between the two waterlines instead of the total beam. To which we add that of the crew, if they sit in then their righting moment is beam times weight, if they have a trapeze then we say their c of g is 0.9 meters further out. You'll then need a fiddle factor to bring the numbers back into line, F18 are the most common boats under SCHRS and they come out at 735 in the above so we could use that as a fiddle factor to give:- 735 /(WS * B/2 + (NC *B + NT*0.9) *WC) This will of course penalise the wide boats doubly in light winds as not only will the rating go up but they tend to under perform their handicap then as they can't unstick the windward hull. It's only a start Steve
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tornado435 ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 05 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 196 |
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Good starting point Steve You will never win I know people poo poo the py system but a purely empirical system will always have flaws. Is it possible to put in a returns factor? |
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353rob ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 18 Jan 06 Location: Ireland Online Status: Offline Posts: 22 |
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Congratulations and well done for taking up this thankless job, It's
good to see some life coming back into SCHRS, it has a solid foundation
with a few very small problems. Looking forward to seeing how the A
Class rating comes out, 97 to .98 is just too hard to race to, have a
look at the results of the Round Texel for a good guide to the circular
random results of the different classes and the elapsed times.
All the best. Rob |
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Scooby_simon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
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I think they would have still walked it at Grafham on 0.98! As for the Righting moment calc; It's something like that ! (secret for now |
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