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Changes at SCHRS

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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 Jun 06 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by Sprint Bob

Hi Simon,

It is a really tough problem. The PY numbers of the Sprint 15 and Dart 18 are in my view correct with respect to one another. By this I mean fair. With respect to monohulls catamarans such as the Sprint 15 & Dart 18 never do well in anything less than a force 4 but do well at higher wind strengths. A handicap system will never address this difference so we have to accept it. The SCHRS system is necessary to accommodate newer classes with a variety of sail plans which will never collect enough empirical data. It is a problem that the formula based SCHRS system does not give similar results for established classes with good PY numbers such as the Dart 18 and Sprint 15. It is even more of a problem when the SCHRS system comes up with different ratings within a class (such as the Sprint 15 & the Sprint 15 Sport mode and probably the Dart 18 unarig single handed mode and the Dart 18 2-up mode). For these reasons the large established classes tend to steer clear of SCHRS rated events in favour of class racing.

Any ideas to review the formulea to get the ratio of established classe (Dart 18, Sprint 15, Shearwater & Hobie 16 without spinakker) ratings more similar to the PY numbers would be beneficial in my view. What ever you do you are bound to get complaints.

Best of Luck

Bob

Bob,

What we are trying to do is bring the SCHRS rule up-to-date as much as is possible in a fairly short timescale and have it in a state to re-present to the ISAF in the Autumn.  We can only make so many changes this year.  These will be (we hope) to correct some of the bigger holes in the rule.

We are already looking at "righting moment" and including this in the rule. 

This will help both the 15 (7 foot 4 wide ?) and 18  (7 feet 6 wide), it will also help both as the hiking helmsman will be factored in too.  This should improve both numbers for the 15 and 18. 

Other factors could also be considered for the rule in the future as well.

Perhaps you could have a think about what you think the SCHRS for the 15 / 15 Sport might be and let me know (e-mail address above).

Will you be at Marconi for the ECPR, Maybe we could have a chat then.

 

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catmandoo View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote catmandoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 06 at 10:22am

what about the unjust treatment of single handers , John pierce with his stealths has proved that the single handed version competes with the two man version on equal terms  , see recent stealth championship and last years event , neither dominated racing when racing on equal handicap and racing was fair , yet under SCHRS the single handers would have recieved a 4% penalty and wouldn't have had a look in , this clearly demonstrates the formulas inability to rate single handers against double handers.

The dart 18 is another example , it allows both to race on equal terms and no advantage to solo version , yet schrs penalises 1% , plus has a dart 18 solo ever won a nationals , which you would expect if its SCHRS therotically faster.

you get the 4% difference above in stealths because of the kite , but how many octopus,s do you know sailing solo !

 

There is a problem though with boats like A class which are in such an extreme performance envelope ie extreme overpowered and rockets in light winds and not so when it rises, but other solo boats , even with kites are more all rounders.

 

and what about weight of helm , I see it raise its head elsewhere and get little response , it gets even worse in a solo boat where a portly helm can be nearly 50% over his rated weight , I know one !

 

 



Edited by catmandoo
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 06 at 11:03am

Catmandoo, I assume your comments relate to the event a few weeks ago at Mumbles, was this not a light wind (<15kts) affair ?  -  I’d wager if the wind had been 20+ all weekend the results would have been different.  Also what was the “Skill spread” over one and 2 up boats ?

 

 

 

For this revision of the rule (it will be an iterative process over time), we have limited time as the proposal has the be infront of the ISAF in the Autumn (and we all have day jobs too!) and we are trying to address some of the larger problems.  We are adding a “righting moment” to the rule which WILL make things fairer as a first step.  It also takes considerable time to “test the rule”.

 

We’ve also had diverse comments regarding the ratings of various boats.  Most cry foul that the A class has been running on an unfair handicap for ages (every A class should turn up to events wioth an SCHRS stamped Measurement certificate).  People (a certain Dutchman for one) also claim that the F16 single handed is an A class eater (take at look at that Cat sailing forum…. ), but I also believe that single handers get a bit of a raw deal (I for one “run out of hands” when it’s windy); this should be improved by the “righting moment” component of the rule as the lower weight of a single handed boat (only one crew) will offset by the lower righting moment of only one crew trapping / hiking.

 

The A class also claims to be sailable / controllable / race-able in loads of wind)anyone send the pictures / film from the worlds a year or so ago in NZ?).  So who does one believe?

 

As I’ve said, we are working on Macro changes to the rule (Righting moment) for now and then we can look at other changes in the future.  I do not believe we can “fix” the SCHRS rule in one go.  I for one am in for the long run as I believe in SCHRS, I also believe it needs to change and that is why I stepped up and took on the Job.

 

Please keep the feedback flowing, but if you can also propose solutions to the problems, it will make out jobs easier.

 

Now back to the day job……

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Post Options Post Options   Quote pdwarren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 06 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Catmandoo, I assume your comments relate to the event a few weeks ago at Mumbles, was this not a light wind (<15kts) affair ?  -  I’d wager if the wind had been 20+ all weekend the results would have been different.  Also what was the “Skill spread” over one and 2 up boats ?



Mumbles was mostly light wind.  The last race on Sunday was up to consistent twin trapeze weather, and it's true that the first two boats round the windward mark were 2-up.  Geert and John P on the other Blade stuck it in on the first downwind leg and we (the other 2-up Blade) went on to win - but not by much.  For the other races, the 2-up boats were placing mid-fleet so there's definitely a point at which the weather favours the extra weight.

Paul
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sprint Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 06 at 9:49am

Simon

Yes, I'll be at the East Coast Piers Race.

Cheers

Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 06 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Sprint Bob

Simon

Yes, I'll be at the East Coast Piers Race.

Cheers

Bob

 

OK, Perhaps we can have a quick chat over a pint on Friday night.  I'll be there late AM / early PM.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote SX-ed up Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 06 at 4:17pm

Simon,

You'll have problems finding a rule that works across all wind strengths, light boats will do well in less wind but wider heavier boats will be powered up later but will stay powered up longer. Here's a starting point for a righting moment factor:-

Boat Weight * 1/2 beam

+ (number of crew * beam + number of trapezes *0.9) * crew weight.

The first part is the righting moment of the boat itself, we should really use the distance between the two waterlines instead of the total beam. To which we add that of the crew, if they sit in then their righting moment is beam times weight, if they have a trapeze then we say their c of g is 0.9 meters further out.

You'll then need a fiddle factor to bring the numbers back into line, F18 are the most common boats under SCHRS and they come out at 735 in the above so we could use that as a fiddle factor to give:-

735 /(WS * B/2 + (NC *B + NT*0.9) *WC)  

This will of course penalise the wide boats doubly in light winds as not only will the rating go up but they tend to under perform their handicap then as they can't unstick the windward hull.

It's only a start

Steve

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote tornado435 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 06 at 4:24pm

Good starting point Steve , but by measuring between waterlines rather than total beam would that not encourage large rack systems as seen on skiffs etc.

You will never win

I know people poo poo the py system but a purely empirical system will always have flaws. Is it possible to put in a returns factor?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 353rob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 06 at 5:54pm
Congratulations and well done for taking up this thankless job, It's good to see some life coming back into SCHRS, it has a solid foundation with a few very small problems. Looking forward to seeing how the A Class rating comes out, 97 to .98 is just too hard to race to, have a look at the results of the Round Texel for a good guide to the circular random results of the different classes and the elapsed times.

All the best. Rob
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Scooby_simon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 06 at 10:06pm

Originally posted by 353rob

Congratulations and well done for taking up this thankless job, It's good to see some life coming back into SCHRS, it has a solid foundation with a few very small problems. Looking forward to seeing how the A Class rating comes out, 97 to .98 is just too hard to race to, have a look at the results of the Round Texel for a good guide to the circular random results of the different classes and the elapsed times.

All the best. Rob

 

I think they would have still walked it at Grafham on 0.98! 

As for the Righting moment calc; It's something like that ! (secret for now )

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