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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Mozzy

Well, although the regular 200 would be slower on a downwind leg,

I'm not sure anyone has ever done any real testing to demonstrate that. An asymmetric kite is always going to have more lift and less drag because its simply a better aerofoil shape. We've also demonstrated with the 470s at least that going dead downwind is slow. So the only situation in which a pole kite might possibly be faster is the narrow band between too deep for the sprit kite to work adequately and too deep for the pole kite to work adequately. And even there my experience was that the pole kite was never faster in any conditions, including sub planing. And we still have to allow for the boat lengths lost hoisting, dropping and gybing.

All these arguments about pole kites are exactly the ones I used when they were proposed for the Cherubs back in the 80s. And I was comprehensively proved wrong.

Originally posted by Mozzy

Did anyone use a asymmetric on a Merlin before they were made illegal?


They were never legal. You have to make a number of rules changes to permit them. In the case of the Merlin they'd need to change the spinnaker pole rule to allow a longer pole projection (otherwise it would be a ridiculous shape), the spinnaker measurement rule to allow for a non-symmetrical sail and write in an exemption to RRS 50.2, which requires the spinnaker pole to be attached to the mast.
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 2:37pm
Well, although the regular 200 would be slower on a downwind leg, it would be quicker on a spinnaker reach than the hypothetical symmetric kite 200.  And the two would be identical on white sails only legs.

I think there are several things here:
1) Is an asymmetric a proper asymmetric if it could go faster downwind with symmetric kite?
Answer: yes, all that is needed to a be a asymmetric is have a asymmetric kite shape.  
2) Is it skiff if it could acheive a better VMG on a dead downwind leg with a symmetric kite?
Answer: by many peoples definition, no. 
3) Is it worth putting an asymmetric on a boat that could go faster downwind VMG with a symmetric kite?
Answer: yes, there are many reasons why it may be describable (ease of handling, interesting strategy, faster average speed through water). 

Most development classes went to asymmetric, and are undoubtedly faster. But most development classes were able to switch up hull shape to match.  

But what about the Merlin. When did they ban asymmetric kites? Did anyone use a asymmetric on a Merlin before they were made illegal? 

Would a merlin with asymmetric and bowsprit be faster round a course? And if it wouldn't, why did they ban it? 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Mozzy

If you fit a 200 with a proper symmetric kite of the same size I reckon it would be faster on downwind legs in almost all conditions.

And yet both the 400 and the 200 have a lower PY number than any vaguely comparable pole kite class of the same length. Its admittedly not an easy comparison because I'm not sure I can think of comparisons that aren't significantly older designs, and those low wetted area Morrison hulls are well optimised for that job.
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Posts: 38 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hitcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 1:08pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

  

Dunno for sure but maybe the best and most truthful way to justify a decision that's legal and doesn't effect anyone else surely must be "because I like it".

.......mind you that would stifle an awful lot of discussion  Wink


Why don't you wear a bike helmet?  Wink
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 1:04pm
Er, the spinnaker is not symmetrical. I think that makes it a true asymmetric. There isn't anything else which is need to be 'true'. 
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 1:02pm
"1.3.23 One booming-out pole using simple clips, hooks or spikes for attachment is permitted for holding out the clew of the spinnaker or jib; this pole shall not be capable of extending the sheet more than 2 metres from the fore and aft centerline of the boat nor exceed 26mm in diameter."

Our 2008 boat came with everything required for the SRS, should we have chosen to run it.  I think RS stopped installing the halyard sheaves and mast hoop required in about 2010. The deck plate was removed a little after. And now with the new decks there is nothing. This was over 10 years on from the class starting, so from RS's side it's not like they stripped it out... sailors just weren't using it. I don't think you can say it was RS changing the build specification that stopped it's use.  The SI rule came in long before.

The problem solved by having the rule in the SIs for RS events only, is that it means you didn't have to carry a whisker pole and you didn't have to run the tweaker lines etc for a whole event on the off chance you might use them in a one race, maybe.

I guess if the SRS was always slower, then they wouldn't have needed a SI rule to ban it's use. 

But, what I've been told by people at the top of the fleet at the time, and involved in the rule change, was that it was marginal at best, and required a lot of extra stuff and faff that people didn't think added to the boat. 

If you fit a 200 with a proper symmetric kite of the same size I reckon it would be faster on downwind legs in almost all conditions. 


Edited by Mozzy - 09 Jul 20 at 1:10pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 12:35pm
An effective whisker pole for the 200 would probably need to be around ten feet long...
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 11:15am
Did the SRS include a whisker pole? I dont remember one but it was a long time ago!

If it needs a whisker pole, and a whisker pole is no longer permitted in class rules (If not supplied its probably not allowed) that will be why no-one does it at any non class events.
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 10:58am
So if you can choose when to run and goosewing and in other situations to 'asymetric' the thing what was the problem solved by dropping it.  The build specification really was changed to take away the supplied standard features that made that choice an easy one on the early examples ?   That and subsequent SI's snuffed it out as part of 200 racing imo.... 

The 200 has its attributes sure and it is very popular partly because of its simplicity - but it is patently not a true asymetric and never was hence the dabbling with the goosewing option early on to increase its flexibility and competiiveness around the market.  You can't make it an true asymetric by simply saying it is and marketing it as such surely  ?   It is in an 'asymetric style' boat of course but is really is  borrowing the term from true asymetrics as do some other classes  (..... Any more that is than the Vareo was really a marketing campaigns 'hot hatchback' ... definately not either !! Wink)
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 20 at 10:36am
 Funny thing is once we've made a decision regarding assy or symmy we're then put under pressure to justify it, just like many other decisions in life. Trouble is most justifications after the event are rationalisations and as such not really worth much.

Dunno for sure but maybe the best and most truthful way to justify a decision that's legal and doesn't effect anyone else surely must be "because I like it".

.......mind you that would stifle an awful lot of discussion  Wink




Edited by Sussex Lad - 09 Jul 20 at 10:36am
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