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    Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 10:07am
L123456... maybe clarify the incident you are referring to?

I'm not a big fan of wind limits in class or sailing instructions. Who measures, with what and when? It also seems to disregard other factors which affect the fairness of racing and suitability of boat (why not significant wave height, or maximum shift?).  

Secondly, people interpret wind limits as a safety measure and may assume it alleviates the sailors from their responsibilities under rule 4. This is not the case. Wind limits can be for a myriad of reasons. It's not a guarantee that racing is safe within the limits, or that it is unsafe outside the limits... but interpreting them as such is something injury lawyers would love! 

If you feel the wind limit was exceeded and that was improper and your result has been unfairly impacted, then fine, request redress. It'll be a hard one to win, however. 

But to go on Facebook, mid event and dispute the jury findings and declare the race unsafe isn't great for the reputation of the sport. 

If the sh*t really does hit the fan, and there's people in danger, then stop racing and help. No one is going to question redress for that. Your safety concerns may also sound more sincere. 
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Posts: 500 		Post Options Post Options   Quote L123456 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 9:56am
Originally posted by Fatboi

Originally posted by L123456

Rule 69 defines misconduct as acts of bad manors and poor sportsmanship.

How does this translate to social media?

Would it be considered bad manners to question the judgement of the PRO or Jury during a championship?



I would say so, especially if you have over 30,000 followers on the page! Criticizing the PRO, race instruments is pretty poor show. 


Exactly ... 
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 9:38am
No it’s not - but I do think that in dealing with the problem officials need to recognise the shift in communication culture of the young.

And where child and young athletes are concerned officials need to get inside their idioms, metaphors and expressions, not allowing their own older biases and heuristics to dominate.

And senior officials absolutely should not blur the line between Rule 2 and Rule 69. I think that is really unhelpful with the issue you are concerned with.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 8:56am
Sargesail,

Is that really the way we want the game to go?

Basketball trash-talking, Cricket sledging, Football, coaches and star players ripping into referees in the media every time they lose a match?
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Posts: 189 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 8:25am
Originally posted by L123456

Rule 69 defines misconduct as acts of bad manors and poor sportsmanship.

How does this translate to social media?

Would it be considered bad manners to question the judgement of the PRO or Jury during a championship?



I would say so, especially if you have over 30,000 followers on the page! Criticizing the PRO, race instruments is pretty poor show. 
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 6:54am
Originally posted by L123456


Originally posted by sargesail


I saw some frustration towards an IJ last week because they are both jury and judge and higher court.

I think this can be really hard for competitors and they need to be able to ‘vent’. Gonna be more of that on social media in the future....


I think it’s poor that people would sound off against the organisers on social media. 


I wasn’t referring to the weather stuff actually. Let’s just say that the committee boats wind instruments need some recalibration!
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 6:50am
Re spoken versus written comms....I’ve 3 times touched the dictation button while writing these posts....there isn’t even a mechanical filter!
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 6:48am
I wouldn’t use it at all. My kids might. My daughter probably wouldn’t.....but having read this decision I know she’d enjoy imagining saying it to her brother if she was in a similar position to the NZL sailor when training.

Would she enjoy having it said to her?

The question is - would she consider it foul, abusive or a breach of good manners....i’ll ask?

]I'm not really sure that enjoyment is a relevant consideration.

Precisely - in terms of enjoying I was referring to thinking it with a little smile when he upsets her.

And that’s the point - I read an earlier thread on language in which an Irish poster noted that the F word is more a verbal fill in than a swear word in Ireland.

So here with ‘suck my balls’.

Here's the go.  In MY opinion this crosses a line.

So here’s my question: if a competitor uses a gesture or expression that is not abusive or a breach of good manners s in his culture but is in another (a simple thumbs up is an example) and a report is made to the PC/IJ how shouls it be dealt with? Presumably the gesturer would need to have known for it to be an infringement. Or merely should have known?

Back to youth culture....I think this has some relevance to the case in question.
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 6:31am

I saw some frustration towards an IJ last week because they are both jury and judge and higher court.

That's what you sign up for when you enter an international event. International event = Elite level of competition = Elite understanding of norms and processes = elite levels of self control.

And perhaps suggests a need for elite levels of empathy?

I think this can be really hard for competitors and they need to be able to ‘vent’. Iabsolutely disagree with. I can abide a competitor using foul language expletives in the heat of the moment (OK, in ordinary conversation), but in writing, or, indeed, deliberate speech, where the message conveyed goes beyond mere expletives, it's different.

So I’m with you in that I’d like that to be the way it is. But I also recognise that for habituated young social media users there is no filtering action as they enter text. It is as the spoken word is to you and I.

So the issue needs some empathy.

I see no reason why the incivility of 8Chan or Sailing Anarchy should be carried over into sailing. Then I'm not too unhappy about a bit more rule 69 penalising.

Seems to me that much of SAs incivility is grumpy old men not unconstrained yoof - let’s not conflate the two.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Aug 19 at 12:22am
Originally posted by sargesail

Brass, 
The perils of a hasty post. Indeed not a language issue. And I should have been clearer that my equivalency point was not aimed at yacht measurement cheating but at the Ben Ainslie incident. 
OK, but consider the outcomes, as I have no doubt the jury in the Ben Ainslie case did:  the one race penalty cost Ainslie the Championship.  In the 49ers GBR 5 was averaging score 10 for her races completed and not penalised:  nowhere near in contention.
Now clearly the allegations made were inappropriate and constitute misconduct....but I don’t see 2 days of DNE as proportionate. 
I agree it looks a bit heavy handed, but I'm not sure that it crosses the line between at the higher end of appropriately severe and inappropriately disproportionate.
I saw some frustration towards an IJ last week because they are both jury and judge and higher court.
That's what you sign up for when you enter an International event.
International event = Elite level of competition = Elite understanding of norms and processes = elite levels of self control.
I think this can be really hard for competitors and they need to be able to ‘vent’.
I absolutely disagree with this proposition.
I can abide a competitor using foul language expletives in the heat of the moment (OK, in ordinary conversation), but in writing, or, indeed, deliberate speech, where the message conveyed goes beyond mere expletives, it's different.
I see no reason why the incivility of 8Chan or Sailing Anarchy should be carried over into sailing.
Gonna be more of that on social media in the future.... 
Then I'm not too unhappy about a bit more rule 69 penalising.



Edited by Brass - 09 Aug 19 at 2:39am
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