Dilemma

Originally posted by 423zero Oli, I would sail my correct course in the slow boat, deliberately manoeuvring to prevent overtaking boat from getting past is unsportsmanlike.

Originally posted by mozzy Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting.

Originally posted by RS400atC The rules are in the rule book. Those are the only rules. People tend to make up other rules to suit their vague sense of what should be seen to be fair, but that's just opinion. You may not like the fact that the rules allow a series to be won by using tactics against another boat in some circumstances, but those are the rules you have.

Originally posted by mozzy I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case.

I would suggest that Case 78 envisaged large handicap events like IRC, with Divisions of similarly performing boats, where no very great disparity between boats was expected.

I think we can all agree that in a club race with a wide performance disparity, say A Class vs Opti, or Cherub vs GP14, it might be within the rules to match race a slow boat down the fleet, but it is less than sportsmanlike.

A particular irritant that is prevalent in dinghies that doesn't happen, well not at the upper levels of windsurf racing, is that boat that even though you've over stood to leave plenty of room for them to tack to your lee bow to round ahead on a starboard hand course, they're going to go on and on yelling starboard to turn you about.

We had a downwind start the next mark was dead downwind from the favoured end (closest to the downwind mark) Port hand start, yet all those Laserati up the line they come sailing in exactly the opposite direction to force a tack away, a good several boat lengths in exactly the opposite directon from the mark, I did a bit of research on this to find the appropriate 'proper course' after the gun ruling, but it is very unclear.




Edited by iGRF - 06 Aug 19 at 3:48pm

Originally posted by CT249 Originally posted by mozzy Originally posted by CT249   There are so many different scenarios that it seems hard to state any strict rules about this sort of situation, IMHO.  Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting.  In terms of the racing rules of sailing I wouldn't go as far as saying you should always sail your proper course. As getting out to one side of a pack of boats to get clear air so you can get to the finish quicker is legitimate.  I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case.  So if you think there's a 51% chance the wind will go right and all of your opponents go left, you HAVE to go right or be unsporting? Clearly not. If the fleet is going the other way then your hedging your chances on getting around the course quickest (on handicap) by going with. This is pretty unrelated to deliberately slowing other boats.  So it's wrong to keep on going for a boatlength to put a loose cover on an opponent when leading up the last leg of a championship? There's no championship raced on handicap. But yeah, I wouldn't sail a boat length out of my way for the sole purpose of slowing another boat in a handicap race. Even in class racing I'd only do it if I thought there was a genuine risk they'd overtake before the finish. Often if it makes no difference to me I'd deliberately not tack on them, just because stuff like that comes around.  You should NEVER sail a single degree higher than your best VMG off the starting line in order to get someone to tack off your weather stern? No of course you can do that. You are protecting your wind in a effort to get around the course as quick as possible. I said above I wouldn't go as far as saying you have to sail your proper course at all times.  You shouldn't ever duck a port tacker to encourage them to keep going?  See above. I wouldn't go as far as saying you have to sail a proper course. Just that you should take action to your boat around the curse as quick as possible.  If it's going to be a really dodgy downwind leg under kite, you MUST put the kite up if you think there's a 50.000001% chance it will be quicker, and it's unsporting to say "the guys behind have left their kite in the bag so we will too"? Well, it's faster if you don't capsize. All sailing is matching risk with reward to get your boat around the course as fast as possible. If you think the risk is less than the reward, then I'd question why you wouldn't do it.  You can't look at the fleet and say "well, I think the No 1 will be quicker but everyone else has changed down so we will do the same so that we know we can be competitive"? Again, this is just hedging your bets. You're still trying to get your boat around quickest. Your just factoring in what other people have done to your risk versus reward to your boat around the course quickest.   It's a breach of good sportsmanship to do something that the world governing body specifically says is NOT a breach of good sportsmanship? I think they are wrong. Rating and handicaps don't equal out the advantage a boat gets when specifically employing tactics to hamper a specific boat. To me that's not fair sailing.  That seems to be harder line than anything I've ever read about, and to be honest it would rob the sailboat racing game of a lot of interest for many of us. Certainly it would mean that almost all of the world's top sailors (including Elvstrom and my personal favourite, Peter Mander) would be considered to be very bad sports, and that seems unlikely to me. Only because you're interpreted what I said as having to sail your proper course and take maximum risk, which is definitely not what I wrote.  If you're interest is match racing slower boats in handicap racing then I pity you. That's not sport for me. I don't know peter mander, but didn't Elvstrom say "You haven't won if, in doing so, you have lost the respect of your competitors.” I've never heard of him matching racing in a handicap race.

Originally posted by Oli asking all....  in a pursuit race what would you do if being the faster boat and just seconds from taking the lead from the slowest boat and seconds from the finish?   do you sail around them?  or attack? or in the slower boat and trying to retain the lead with just seconds to go to the finish? do you accept they sail around or do you defend?

Edited by CT249 - 07 Aug 19 at 1:13am

Originally posted by mozzy Originally posted by CT249   There are so many different scenarios that it seems hard to state any strict rules about this sort of situation, IMHO.  Every action you take should be to get your boat to the finish as quick as possible. Anything outside that is unsporting.  In terms of the racing rules of sailing I wouldn't go as far as saying you should always sail your proper course. As getting out to one side of a pack of boats to get clear air so you can get to the finish quicker is legitimate.  I think Case 78 is what's relevant here and I think it was a big mistake to include handicap and rated events in that case.

Edited by CT249 - 06 Aug 19 at 10:16am