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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by jeffers

...proving any deliberate attempt to deceive...


Whatever the chances of proving it the point should be made that lying or even massaging the truth in Protest room is unsporting, indeed deliberate cheating, and gross misconduct, and people shouldn't be casual talking about it.

I must say though, maybe I've been lucky, but I've never been involved with a protest hearing where I suspected dishonesty (even when I lost). Its always seemed to me, that, however different peoples viewpoints, they could be reconciled to a reasonable version of events. However I've only really been involved with youth and club level hearings. I fear the experience of the average IJ at certain styles of International event might be different.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:06pm
Rather than talking about parties lying (and I suggest that the original reference was flippant and silly), I suggest we should bear in mind RRS Appendix M, Preamble

In a protest or redress hearing, the protest committee ...  should recognize that honest testimony can vary, and even be in conflict, as a result of different observations and recollections
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by piglet

Originally posted by davidyacht

My guess is that RS200 was trying to prevent a possible overlap, which prevented a good wide in - tight out rounding DIV]

Good assessment, there was also a 2nd 200 inches to leeward of the 1st 200 applying pressure and sucking the air out of the rig.

Brass, there was no boat contact.

So pretty good evidence that tacking was 200's proper course.

So the 200 was right of way boat, entitled to room to sail her proper course (that is, luff into her tack), and exoneration if she broke rule 16 while doing so, until she passed head to wind.

Who says who broke what rule?


Edited by Brass - 05 Apr 16 at 12:34am
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Posts: 397 		Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:36pm
This is a common situation in team and match racing. The lead boat thinks they can tack but forgets that the pivot point is the centreboard. This kicks the stern out in front of the following boat.
This effect seems to be exaggerated when the boats are going slowly, or light winds.
We spent most of Sunday afternoon practicing this in our team racing drills.
Leading into a starboard rounding windward mark is not as easy as most think, if the situation played out as usual the 200 would be in the wrong, though it is easy to push this if you are the following boat.

Andy
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Brass


Who says who broke what rule?

Laser squarked at 200 for 'tacking in her water' (16.1?)
200 believed mark room entitled tacking onto proper course.
No damage or official protest but matter needed clarification.

Andy,
Excellent point about stern kicking out.


Edited by piglet - 05 Apr 16 at 10:43am
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 11:07am
OK, 'tacking in her water' is the button-up boots way of saying that a boat while tacking, that is having passed head to wind and not yet reached a close hauled course, failed to keep clear, as required by rule 13.

As I said before, given that 200's proper course was to tack, she was entitled to room to sail her proper course (rule 18.2( c )(2)), and while doing so was exonerated is she failed to give L room to keep clear under rule 21.

Once 200 passed head to wind rule 13 began to apply and she was required to keep clear of L.

If L needed to change course to avoid 200 then 200 broke rule 13.

The rule 21 exoneration is really just a bonus for 200:  this is probably best looked at as simply a boat clear ahead and a little to leeward or just on the line of the astern boat having enough space to tack without breaking rule 13 (or when tacking from starboard onto port, then rule 10).
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by piglet


Add to this there was slight tide running against the boats as they headed for M1, and wind was fairly light. This was a compounding factor in 200's decision of when to tack, tacking on the mark would have risked mark contact.

Surely if the Laser which had been forced to tack managed to fit between the RS200 and the mark without hitting either, the RS200 would find it quite hard to prove that he was sailing a proper course?

Correct me if I am wrong but I would have thought that a proper course was either to tack immediately after passing the mark, or carrying on on the same tack ... holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:15pm
Tacking away from the other 200 close to leeward would have been a proper course for 200.

200's proper course is irrelevant once she passes head to wind and rule 13 applies.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:16pm
the leeward boat is irrelevant in terms of a proper course discussion as Proper Course is defined as in the absence of other boats.....
Paul
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course?


"I was going to sail on a bit further, but the wind headed and I tacked on it/ I changed my mind/the crew pointed out that the wind looked better on the left/all sorts of other possibilities."



Edited by JimC - 05 Apr 16 at 12:25pm
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