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Demise of the double hander
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Do Different View Drop Down
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    Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 7:58pm
Blimey iGRF! I wouldn't tell anyone they're wrong but to my mind you don't half waste a lot of nervous energy tilting at conspiracy villains. Anti crew mafia, wrong courses and slanted PYs.

I have both a two man boat and single hander but two man is where investment is.

Why.

Cos it's more fun with company; in the heavy stuff we kid each other up to dig deep and be last men standing and in the light we keep each other sane and relaxed.

What's in it for crews? 

Well at my Club as I've said the points follow the person not the boat, there a crew could quite feasibly win a series and get ALL the glory.

Come on! In a single wire spinnaker boat the crews have the best views and the most demanding skill set.

PYs really who cares. Nuff said.

Courses. Can't really see your argument on that one.

As regards getting a race week in week out. Well that's mindset surely? Regardless of my mate turning up I will always give it a look and I reckon to have at least a 75% chance of going out double handed. If my mate's not there chances are someone else will be in the same position and we'll mix n match as suits. Failing that there are sometimes juniors or less practised adults fresh from RYA Level whatever who are ready to step into something different to the training fleet.

Boats. Don't diss the 505, the crews boat if ever there was one. Of course now with skiff style boats and self tackers crews are taking the main upwind and playing with the big pretty coloured thing down. What's in it for helms? 

For what it's worth my travelling crew is a well tidy helm from the wire but still enjoys two man, three sail single wire racing. I guess because the team works, as the Royal Navy recruiting ad used to say duff! duff!

 
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:04pm
I think you might have gotten the wrong end of my meaning, or I put it wrong.

Nobody likes sailing two up more than I, but my point was very often the crews name is not part of the team, anyone even know my crews name? You all crack on about me often enough anyone know who the poor long suffering fella that has to put up with my crap is?

Which kind of makes my point.

That and the fact most of the stuff y'all use is too difficult to bother with anyway and the stuff I use is at least a bit easier to learn so gives the option to train a scratch crew on the fly.

Edited by iGRF - 08 Oct 14 at 8:05pm
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:05pm
I think MM may have a point regarding training focusing on helming boats. The vast majority of new members we get are via sail training where they are taught to helm. Once they finish the courses they look to boats that they can comfortably get around a course and so the bulk of them end up borrowing our club toppers. When they realise that toppers are slow kids boats they give up.
The sad thing is there are small groups of people wanting to crew in active fleets, but there seems to be a bit of nervousness from helms to ask for a crew, oddly the potential crews are happy to advertise their availability. I wonder whether this is down to the existing helms not wanting to drop down the fleet due to having an inexperienced crew. The silly thing is that without a crew these guys end up sailing less which I am sure they dont like.

We have seen a gradual move away from doublehanders to singlehanders, and from slower boats to fast boats, but are now starting to see the trend reversing. More fast boat sailors like myself are starting to move back into slower boats to sail with wives or children and hence also forcing a move in to doublehanders again!

Edited by craiggo - 08 Oct 14 at 8:07pm
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:11pm
Trev? and why does he put up with you ranting on? I guess because it's a price worth paying for a jolly good day out and you are probably a lot more fun when your brain is engaged with wind n water than politics.  Wink
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:14pm
Matt, our racing numbers are up, it's just the number of double handers that are down.  We have five double hander club boats plus run training on demand, but the take up just isn't there.  I think there is come truth in some double handers being too complex for novices, plus the simpler assys demand more water or different courses.  

I think there is a bit of stigma around symmetric spinnakers being seen as old fashioned, which is a real shame as they perform do much better than asymmetrics on limited waters.  There are also now too many DIs countrywide who couldn't teach the skills of symmetric sailing which is a bad thing in my view.  Too many people take the easy route and dont bother to even attempt the slightly more complex yet rewarding art.
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Well at my Club as I've said the points follow the person not the boat, there a crew could quite feasibly win a series and get ALL the glory.
Well, that's a new one on me - you mean the crew and helm get equal points separately for their placing?

We award points to the boat now, whereas 10 years ago we only awarded them to the helm.  Now I can see a reason for switching again to a helm and crew system - another topic for the next sailing committee meeting!

How, as a practical, i.e. Sailwave, matter do you manage the results service;  is there a standard setting buried somewhere in the menu?  Frankly, the results service was a major consideration in us moving to a boat-to-count system!
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:25pm
"I think there is a bit of stigma around symmetric spinnakers being seen as old fashioned, which is a real shame as they perform do much better than asymmetrics on limited waters.  There are also now too many DIs countrywide who couldn't teach the skills of symmetric sailing which is a bad thing in my view.  Too many people take the easy route and dont bother to even attempt the slightly more complex yet rewarding art."

Well yes I always respect your opinion WI but please stop it with the myth about sym. kites being difficult. They are certainly a lot easier to get to work on a small water than struggling with angles and light winds using an assy.

I started with a single wire assy. kite boat and moved to a single wire sym. with some trepidation. Best decision ever; simply so much more versatile over wind strengths and waters.
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:29pm
MM. Well, that's a new one on me - you mean the crew and helm get equal points separately for their placing?

Yes that is what I mean. We are using Sailwave but don't ask me how everything is set up.
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Posts: 1586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote kneewrecker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:33pm
I don't get enough time to sail as it is - coordinating with someone else...?  Seriously?  Not a prayer.....  

Double handed sailing can be more fun though- at least there's someone to chat to when the race or wind take a turn for the worse.

And yes symmetric kites are seen as fuddy-duddy and old fashioned- that attribute was perpetuated through the 90's quite extensively. Top down too... we were advised by someone at the RYA to get rid of our 420s and getting Hobie 405s when I was a kid.... anyone here ever sail a 405- what a load of crap they were.  

Looks like the someone flushed the skill set down the toilet.  What are all the ex-29er squad kids sailing now?  They've been around a good few years?  Where did the kids end up?  Genuine question, I've no idea what the 25-30 year old former 29er sailor is now typically sailing.....
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 14 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Do Different

"I think there is a bit of stigma around symmetric spinnakers being seen as old fashioned, which is a real shame as they perform do much better than asymmetrics on limited waters.  There are also now too many DIs countrywide who couldn't teach the skills of symmetric sailing which is a bad thing in my view.  Too many people take the easy route and dont bother to even attempt the slightly more complex yet rewarding art."

Well yes I always respect your opinion WI but please stop it with the myth about sym. kites being difficult. They are certainly a lot easier to get to work on a small water than struggling with angles and light winds using an assy.

I started with a single wire assy. kite boat and moved to a single wire sym. with some trepidation. Best decision ever; simply so much more versatile over wind strengths and waters.


I'm not saying they're difficult, but for the beginner they are more complicated than the assy.  I started with the 470 and the fireball, but nowadays have the d one.  The sym isn't difficult once you know what you're doing, but isn't as easy to pick up as the assy.
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