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Rupert View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 10:14am
Originally posted by alstorer

whilst it definitely spunds liek an Oppie or Topper meeting, it certainly doesn;'t sound like one that the "squads" were at if there were only 13 boats! Not fair to blame "the hell of the squad system" for something that happened at a minor event outside of its sphere of influence.


It might not be a squad event, but I'm pretty sure the influence of squad behaviour exists beyond squad events - parents wanting their children to win at all costs, never mind the enjoyment, to get into the next layer of things.

Maybe I'm wrong - maybe there is no pressure from anywhere, and the parents simply go and have a cup of coffee and a chat, and say "well done dear, did you enjoy yourself?" when they come in off the water, and take no interest in the results - after all, it is the taking part and the fun that matters.

But in that case, why is a parent worried about an unfair result being canned? They should be all far it, however it changes the score sheet, as it means the results from the 3 "fair" races decide how the (ignored?!) results are worked out. Such things as proper procedure shouldn't even be on the radar.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Plenty of sports have no squad system and still manage pushy parents...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 10:41am
Originally posted by OultonBen


Originally posted by Peaky

Starting the race 30 seconds early is a cock up, but hey, these things happen. But, it sounds like the PRO immediately knew of the mistake, so why did he/she not immediately abandon and re-start? ...... I don't see what the description of early starters getting to the first mark last has to do with anything, other than to suggest that those who started early didn't get an advantage (although clearly they did!).
...... - does a race begin at the start signal or 4 minutes after the prep signal?
Hi Peaky,
(1) PRO "thought" the problem lay with competitors OCS being unable quickly to get back in the light conditions; the team "thought" there was nothing amiss with their procedures [<font ="Apple-style-span" size="1">I'm starting a new thread on "Time Errors"];
RO team did consider a restart but all OCS competitors returned, so let it run.
(2) A race can be a valid race, even though the start was early;  start is when the signal (flag) is lowered, and attention may or may not be drawn to this by appropriate sound signal [<font ="Apple-style-span" size="1">RRS26];  however, because sailors tend to respond to the sound, RO's tend to restart if they make a sound error (<font ="Apple-style-span" size="1">not making a sound is not an error, but making a sound at the wrong time is).
It was important for the PC to take evidence that there was (a) no fault of the sailor, that (b) the race result had been made worse and that (c) the RC was at fault [<font ="Apple-style-span" size="1">RRS62.1(a)];
<span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>it was for proving 'b' that looking at the last & next-point-of-certainty principle (i.e. positions at the next mark) was a part of this process.
<span ="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">     </span>It is quite possible for there to be a total cock-up in procedure ('c'), and yet that there's no grounds for redress because say, the competitor started 3rd and finished 3rd, so there was no worsening in position('b').


Thanks for the clarification. It certainly sounds like abandonment was the only course of action.

Not sure I totally agree with the logic behind a race being potentially valid if there is no worsening of position, but its not my opinion that matters!
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Peaky

Thanks for the clarification. It certainly sounds like abandonment was the only course of action.
Not sure I totally agree with the logic behind a race being potentially valid if there is no worsening of position, but its not my opinion that matters!
Quite see your point-of-view, but that's RRS62 which says,
".... boat’s score in a race or series has, through no fault of her own, been made significantly worse by (a) an improper action or omission of the race committee ..... "
Therefore the PC is directed to identify (i) score in race or series significantly worsened, (ii) no competitor fault, (iii) improper RC action;
this leaves open the possibilities for Not Awarding Redress because (i) worsened results was not "significant" (maybe only say, three-or-four places ?), (ii) the competitor had a mishap (say capsized due to a panic manoeuvre responding to an out-of-time signal), (iii) The RC Not making a sound with a flag-signal is not improper, but making it when there is no flag-signal is improper [RRS 26].
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 12:26pm
1) A parent isn't a boat, the RC, or the PC. They can't protest or request for redress. A parent is an interested party (US Sailing appeal 107). The only thing a parent can do is make a report for consideration by a PC under 69 (not applicable here).
 
2) Without a result from the water to work from (cf Cowes week this year), then choices are really average points for the fleet (not really a great answer), or abandonment. IJ manual on redress:
 
Average points: This is often used when a boat entitled to redress has been unable to finish the race in question. It is suitable only for boats competing in a series of races in which there are at least five races and in the interests of fairness the number of races for which average points are granted would rarely exceed twenty per cent and never exceed 50 per cent of the number of races sailed in the series. Usually all races other than those or which redress is being granted are used for calculating the average points, however, in longer series consideration could be given to excluding a boat worse score from the average calculation. In major events consideration may also be given to excluding the last race of the series from the average points calculation so as competitors know the exact progress scores of all boats going into the final race for the purpose of them being able to devise their tactics and strategies. If a majority of races in a series have already been completed the average points could be determined on the basis of her points for all races completed before the race in question. Position of boat at time of incident: Points can be awarded based on the position of the boat in that race at the time of the incident. This method would rarely be used if the incident was early in the race and should never be used unless the positions of the boats in the race have become well established.
Finishing times: If the time lost by a boat in an incident can be reasonably determined the boats score could be adjusted by awarding points equal to the finishing position the boat would have had if that time was deducted from its elapsed time for the race. Protest committees must be careful to follow Case 110 and not grant redress for time or places lost during contact or an incident, but rather ONLY grant redress for time or places lost because of the boat’s slower progress caused by the injury or damage.
Other arrangements: If a boats score can’t be fairly adjusted using the above arrangements some other method of redressing its score could be appropriate. For example in a two of a kind mixed fleet race it could be considered fair to give that boat points equal to the other boat of its same kind.
Abandonment: Abandonment should only be used as an option of last resort where no fair arrangement can be determined for all boats affected. This is important because to abandon a race may be unfair to those boats that won or finished the race on their own merits.
 
3)There's also a question as to whether the windshift was large enough to trigger an abandoment anyway. RYA race manual on abandoning.
 
It is strongly recommended that the following policies are followed with respect to the use of this signal:(flag N)
1. On the first half of the first leg, abandon in the event of a major wind shift (more than 25 degrees) or the wind dying. After that, let the race continue and change the course.
2. Collapse of wind. It is appropriate to abandon the race when the situation is such that the leading boat would be unlikely to reach Mark 1 within the Mark 1 time limit or complete the course within the overall time limit, even if a new wind were to arrive. It has to be considered whether a new wind is likely. The further into the race, the more unlikely it is to be appropriate to abandon.
3. Increase of wind speed; danger to life. When there is a danger to life, the race should be abandoned immediately. The number of boats available for rescue (not currently involved in rescue) should be considered. The decision should also be based on the wind speed upper limits in the class rules or previously agreed with the class and the organising authority.
4. Unusual occurrence making the race unfair. This can happen when there is some outside influence that has an adverse effect upon the fairness of the race.
5. Frequent and violent wind shifts. Under these circumstances the race committee may not be able to adjust the course sufficiently or quickly enough to maintain a race of the required standard. The race should be abandoned.
 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 22 Oct 13 at 12:31pm
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by JimC

Plenty of sports have no squad system and still manage pushy parents...
I reckon there might also be issues at the "lower" end where the ambitions/expectation of the parents don't match up with the desires/skill levels of the kids.
Obviously there's also what are probably the majority of parents who are happy as long as their kids are having fun.
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

1) A parent isn't a boat, the RC, or the PC. They can't protest or request for redress. A parent is an interested party (US Sailing appeal 107). The only thing a parent can do is make a report for consideration by a PC under 69 .....

2) .... choices are really average points for the fleet, .... or abandonment ..... 
.... important because to abandon a race may be unfair to those boats that won or finished the race on their own merits.

3)There's also a question as to whether the windshift was large enough to trigger an abandoment anyway. 
Well quoted Presuming Ed, (please excuse my highlight colouring).
(#1) it's really useful to see these directives repeated f.a.o. pushy parents, but conversely there's the politic issue of somehow keeping as many people/parents as on-side as possible since indeed, it is the parents that spend the cash and time to enable the sailor.
(#2) In the case in point the PC considered different methods of awarding equitable results and average points would have resulted in greater variations to overall result than did simple abandonment.  Your Manual quote recognises the validity of abandoning, even if this is unfair to some.
(#3) Yes accepted in this case that the RO made that mistake of not abandoning, as well as the timing thing; in retrospect he admits this and has held his hands very high !_!
Oooh ..... Hindsight !
[b.t.w. there really isn't a need to lengthy-quote Manuals that we all (maybe?) have access to and refer to as a matter of course;  aren't we in a Forum to share experience, discuss and cast opinion ?]
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 4:15pm
there doesn't seem to be anything in the RRS or call book that covers this, presumably because there's an assumption any RO would notice the mistake, abandon swiftly and attempt to restart the sequence.
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Posts: 49 		Post Options Post Options   Quote OultonBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by alstorer

there doesn't seem to be anything in the RRS or call book that covers this, presumably because there's an assumption any RO would notice the mistake, abandon swiftly and attempt to restart the sequence.
Hi alstorer,
Quite-so, but as said previously: 
Hi Peaky,
(1) PRO "thought" the problem lay with competitors OCS being unable quickly to get back in the light conditions; the team "thought" there was nothing amiss with their procedures [I'm starting a new thread on "Time Errors"];
RO team did consider a restart but all OCS competitors returned, so let it run.
It is now believed that maybe there was a large unnoticed shift in Radio-Controlled-Clock timing;  the experienced race-team so positive that they were working to the correct time, and all the competitors totally otherwise, so confusion reigned.  Even the on-water coach radioed-through, "What are you going to do about that?", but didn't elaborate on what, "... that ....", referred to with the race-team assuming that the many OCS were being referred to.



Edited by OultonBen - 22 Oct 13 at 6:04pm
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