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Lee-Bow..... Windsurfers...etc (Dons tin hat)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lee-Bow..... Windsurfers...etc (Dons tin hat)
    Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 8:17pm
I read recently that my schoolboy knowledge of lifting sections (Bernoulli principle) is a myth and lift is simply down to angle of attack. 
I guess the different sections and now flaps and leading edge slats facilitate smooth flow at different angles of attack.
  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 7:50pm
All the above is true.

So, it follows that the statement I made much earlier that the true test of a sailors skill in low energy situations, is his /her's ability to maximise both sources of energy into forward movement in the direction required.

Ergo if that means altering the angle of attack of either set of foils in order to gain extra energy, then the net increase in energy will result in more efficient forward motion.

Lift as I remember correctly it is a result of both the Bernoulli principle and the AoA.

Do we have to go into Bernoulli and principles of Fluid & Aerodynamics?

Edited by iGRF - 26 Sep 19 at 7:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 7:31pm
Let me add -apart from any affect that the movement of the water has on the apparent wind on the sails (the vector sum of the true wind and the tide induced wind)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 7:16pm
No it doesn’t-the movement of the water wrt the ground has not affect at all on the motion of the boat through the water.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Both fluids contain energy to be harnessed, sorry it's a fact and don't ask me to draw you a vectorgram whatever..

Ah, well now we have to be very careful, because there are considerable traps for the unwary here.
The energy to *sail* comes from the difference in velocity between air and water, and that energy is the same whether there's 5 knots of tide and no wind, or 5 knots of wind and no tide. And as we should all know, if there's 5 knots of wind and 5 knots of tide in the same direction, we feel no wind on the boat and can't sail. After the boat has passed both wind and water are moving at a lower *relative* velocity, be it all in eddies and things.

However the current is also moving the boat (or not) in a separate energy mechanism where the boat just drifts, the moving carpet if you like, and that moving carpet is providing energy from a different mechanism. And that adds or subtracts from the wind/water relative motion energy.

Edited by JimC - 26 Sep 19 at 7:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 6:49pm
The only empirical science is mathematics, everything else is theory, latest theory on flight still relies on Bernoulli theory for part of maths, but they still acknowledge it might be wrong, movement through water exactly the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by mozzy

If you can't explain its relevance than yes, we are.

I can accept that, maybe, the ferry example is not the best but in the kayak example, the principle works in exactly the same way as it would with a sailboat. I'll try to draw out what I'm thinking, maybe that will show me that I'm wrong but if it does it will have helped me understand. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by mozzy


]The energy source is the water moving relative to the land. A sailing dinghy the energy source is the air moving relative to the water. The sailing dinghy has no contact with the land and therefore it can't access that energy, which is why bringing it up is so insane and irrelevant.   


Got it.

This is wrong and fundamentally what it appears you cannot or refuse to grasp, in a sail craft there are TWO sources of energy.

Just as that article in Sailing Today was wrong to suggest that you should think that the yacht is sailing inside a tank full of water being conveyed by the current, which is what appears to be the gist of your argument.

Both fluids contain energy to be harnessed, sorry it's a fact and don't ask me to draw you a vectorgram whatever..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 5:51pm
Posters who find thread boring, don't read, start a thread you find interesting.
Some posts are very oppressive and smack of censorship.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Sep 19 at 5:43pm
If you can't explain its relevance than yes, we are.

Hull drag might be 200 newtons, so about 20 kg of tension in that ferry line... how will that force get to the sailing boat if it's not attached via a line? How does the energy transfer? 

Is there a magnetism or induced electrical current I'm missing?


Edited by mozzy - 26 Sep 19 at 5:54pm
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