The Tasar v the Icon

Originally posted by boatshed If you, personally, cannot sail a boat to it's handicap, you 'under achieve'.  With a new boat, this isn't the boat's fault.  It's the crew's ability.

What is wrong with a sample of ONE boat/crew ?

Well frankly where do we start  ? and for that matter why does anyone bother to teach stats at all.... So keeping it as simple as can be for a moment ..... Could I choose a single example of lets say YOUR preferred class to make a point ?  Of course not - so why do you think you can do so now in this context and expect to be taken for real ?

At my own club we do sail Icons off 990 despite the EN of 969 ... and on personal local handicap for me and my crew this is reduced by a further 13.3% -  making something roughly equating to 860 !   We don't get excited by this however or draw knee-jerk conclusions - it really is a personal handicap on a small gravel pit.  Sadly you might well think and it  proves diddly squat however in statistical terms.  Why on earth then would the local handicappers live with 990 for Icon then ?   Might just be because some of them do have a working relationship with sampling issues and stats in their 'other' lives...  Are they applying 'common sense' or are they too easily influenced and naive ?

Heck I've had a great idea .. in fact a very old and repeated one.  It would also be a bit more interesting than 'sailing around on keyboards' doing this stuff  ;-) 

Why don't we all get together and swap boats for a weekend - Call it a forumites or anarchists gathering or whatever.   'You' can borrow an Icon and see what effective imaginary PN you cail sail it too  ... and a few Icon crews get to try your ride and see if what effective PN they can derive from it - The 'winners' get bought lots of beer from the 'losers' but  we all have a lot of fun.   (The purchaser of beers to be determined by their ability or inabaility to 'beat'  the 'official' numbers of course).      

There is moaning about prevailing EN / PN numbers and there are surely legitimate queries about a system that produces them and will continue to produce them ... We can surely all do a little bit better.

Mike L.

For the record the 'approachable RYA' have not (yet) responded on two seperate occasions to emails plus phone calls from us quering PN policy with regard to new class introductions - even to say 'nothing doing' .  The RYA still seems keen however to collect class affiliation fees - even from new classes.

   

Originally posted by iGRF Not only is it data from a puddle, but it's data from a 'top sailor'

It's not a puddle.   Yes, the sailors are a good team in a new boat but racing against other, equally good teams in good boats.  In the words of Marke, they "over achieved" on the handicap and appeared to have often  sailed it faster than it's EN

This is the best evidence posted to date about the Icon's PY potential.  

It may be true that many future Icon racers will under achieve, in which case the PY system will adjust and adjust quite quickly.

If you, personally, cannot sail a boat to it's handicap, you 'under achieve'.  With a new boat, this isn't the boat's fault.  It's the crew's ability.   You either get better or get your club to give you a 'personal handicap' much like golf.

In a way, I think personal handicaps are a good way of encouraging newbies to club racing.

Originally posted by boatshed If I were an Icon owner, I would be happy with a marketing pitch of "quicker than a Merlin"

Except it's not physically quicker than a Merlin.

It's quicker than a merlin upwind
It's quicker than a Merlin on a tight 2 sail reach
It's slower than a Merlin Downwind on kiteable reaches

Which tells you in circumstances where they can't use their kites, (i.e. in water surrounded by trees and odd courses inland) then Merlins and Hornets will be beaten by it.

Originally posted by Rupert What I took from the data was the enormous spread of handicaps for one person in one boat. Just shows how much data is needed to produce figures which are going to be reliable. All the more reason for ALL clubs to send in returns.

Look at the team's 'over achievement' data for the other classes.   It averages at 1.8%.   This team is good, as Marke noted, and I would expect the same for the Icon.     Over achieving by 4.6% in the Icon, over a long series of races, demonstrates to me that their local h/c of 978 is generous.  

Anyhow, there are very few Icons out there and this is the best data to date.

If I were an Icon owner, I would be happy with a marketing pitch of "quicker than a Merlin"