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Nice new Laser for Christmas
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    Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:08pm
The Laser is as close as it gets? Pull the other one...

The ad retraction didn't even deny the choosing North or Hyde. Surely if they're the same you wouldn't need a choice?
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Emilio Castelli View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Emilio Castelli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by Peaky

The Laser is as close as it gets? Pull the other one...

Care to elaborate with an example of a boat you think is closer to one design than the Laser?
Thanks
E
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:33pm
Topper. All injection moulded. Much more consistent than hand layup Lasers.

Edited by JimC - 06 Dec 14 at 10:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:33pm
Too many to list, but Topper, most of the RS boats, Musto skiff, 49er (which has plenty of debate around who makes the best, but without consensus), etc etc.
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Peaky

Too many to list, but Topper, most of the RS boats, Musto skiff, 49er (which has plenty of debate around who makes the best, but without consensus), etc etc.

With respect, where is your evidence that the above are closer to one design than the Laser is?
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249

Exactly why the Laser builders haven't provided independent information about tolerances is an interesting question. There could also be some very interesting studies, such as double-blind testing of boats with different rakes and weights.


Making a bit of a rod for your own back if you publish that stuff though aren't you... By and large the majority seem to believe variances in the Laser are within reasonable bounds. If you spend a lot of money on a serious study and demonstrate that actually, no, the build tolerances need to be considerably tightened then you've made yourselves very unhappy boat builders.

And if you publish measurements and tolerances everyone will start measuring their boats, there will be rumours going round about which are the best numbers, and yo'll get hassle with people rejecting boats that are particularly far off the numbers.

I think the status quo probably suits most parties best. And as I said above, clear communication is scarcely an ILCA speciality...

There are also very few people who really want to commit to the work of a serious study, only anoraks like me. Case in point, the Solo fleet Captain at our club has refurbished an old Solo and is racing it against new boats to get an idea of relative speed, but when I suggested spending a day doing short races and helm swaps for a proper numerical trial of relative speed it was not greeted with enthusiasm by he sailors.

I understand the point about creating ammunition for people to chuck back at you, but I'm pretty confident that the result would show that at least some builders are making boats to very tight specs. If some builders aren't then IMHO they should get their act together in the long-term interest of all concerned. 

Rejection of certain boats could probably be solved by builders stating the tolerances in advance. I know that even under the current system, if I got a new boat that was well outside normal dimensions I'd be returning it with commentary on the Sale of Goods Act and what "fit for purpose" means in a boat sold as a strict one design. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 11:01pm
Jist because there is no evidence for something doesn't mean it's not true. But Toppers are injection moulded, in one factory and have one sailmaker, spar maker etc. I have no doubt they are more consistently produced than hand Kay up Lasers built in several places with a choice if sails. Likewise, 49er and Musto have higher quality production techniques that should ensure tighter tolerences and hence greater similarity. I've no idea if RS are any more OD than a Lader, but you can't pick your sailmaker at least.

Not knocking the Laser, but to claim it is the tightest OD in the world surely also needs some evidence to back it up. The advert, even though retracted (in part) does not inspire confidence and neither does unpublished results of measurements taken at Santander.
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 14 at 11:24pm
Originally posted by Peaky


Not knocking the Laser, but to claim it is the tightest OD in the world surely also needs some evidence to back it up. The advert, even though retracted (in part) does not inspire confidence and neither does unpublished results of measurements taken at Santander.

/\

Yep, it would be good to get evidence for the claim (or to have it retracted) and I see your point about tighter tolerances in other building techniques. 

Is injection moulding much better at consistency than rotomoulding PE? A SMOD I sail is rotomoulded PE and has a lot of variation due to variation in mould temperature, time in the mould, stacking once removed from the mould etc, and at least some of those factors apparently affect injection moulding as well. Whether the variation in Toppers is significant is something I have no idea about. 

It's also noticeable that the variation in hulls in the SMOD I sail appears to have no affect on the placings!


Edited by Chris 249 - 06 Dec 14 at 11:32pm
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 14 at 8:00am
Originally posted by Peaky

The ad retraction didn't even deny the choosing North or Hyde. Surely if they're the same you wouldn't need a choice?

It is widely accepted in Laser circles that a Hyde sail is better than a North sail which is why our colonial cousins like to import Hydes.

Having seen a North sail it did look even worse than a Hyde after a similar amount of usage from new. 
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Dec 14 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by bustinben

I think all this may be moot anyway in practice - how does LPE or Sailboats.co.uk know what the "optimum mast rake" is?  

Reputational damage to the class aside that is.  

And that notwithstanding the fact that any decent laser sailor knows that the "all boats are the same" thing is utter b**locks anyway.

Dead

Since our Lasers come from a different builder I don't know whether the claim about your Lasers is correct, but where is the objective evidence that there is a discernible speed difference between Lasers today?

In your earlier posts you have disputed claims by other people about Aussie boats being faster, you disputed the claims that the optimal weight range of Radials is narrow, and claimed that the sails were better than others reckon. To be honest IMHO you're right in all of those points, but is there any more or less evidence for the claim that there is significant variation between Lasers than there is for the claims you dispute?

One can feel a difference between Lasers (or THINK one can feel a difference, which is quite a different matter) but finding hard evidence of an actual speed difference in current boats appears to be impossible, unless the boat is actually beaten up or broken. 

Well, the physical differences are readily provable to anybody who cares to check.  I know that they're there because I've measured them myself.  I've got a table of rake measurements from a range of boats, and not only are no two the same, they're in fact all very different.  Anybody who is a member of a club with more than 1 laser can repeat my experiment  Smile

As to whether it actually makes a difference on the racecourse, that's much harder to prove conclusively. Sailing two boats with different rakes does feel different, but can you be sure that one is better than the other?

What you *can* say on this topic if you understand how the laser rig works, is that if you have a mast that is raked 2 inches further back than other, then you have the same leech tension as the forward raked boat if it loosened the traveller or clew strap by the same amount.

A bit of 2 boat tuning in hiking conditions up until you start de-powering significantly will quickly show you what happens if you do that (clue, it's not going to be very fun).

That doesn't help you assess where the limits lie however.  I'm sure there's a point where going further forward will start to disadvantage you.

P.S. I know I've argued that the published radial "ideal weight" is utter b**locks, but I'm not sure I've claimed that it has a wide range?
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