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tickler View Drop Down
Really should get out more
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Joined: 03 Jun 07
Location: Tunstead Milton
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Posts: 895 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: V Twin
    Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 6:07pm
Hummm....I see the problem. I spent 30 years building handmade kitchens and it was impossible to make them cheaply. Every screw you put in costs 50p and fitting is complicated and time consuming. However customers were willing to pay because they were getting what they wanted. How can one justify spending large sums of money on a project which may or may not work and may or may not make any money. It would be a shame if such an interesting project failed for lack of finance. Please do your best to complete the project.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 6:30pm
Money's a funny thing, it's not always necessarily the quantity of it, it's the return on the investment.

Purely monetarily I've lost more money on bloody currency transactions in the last few months than this will cost, and invested five times the amount on bloody windsurfing stock that failed to turn a profit.

So it really gets down to confidence in getting a return. One of those boys is a bit of a 'sales' guy and when he gets in full flow, there's no question, I'm reaching for the chequebook (There's nothing weaker minded than one salesman being flogged something he really wants by another). 

At the end of the day, my 'return'  as the 'sales'guy said is to be able to sail faster round a course in it than I would in an MPS/700 in a bit of breeze. Now that doesn't mean sail faster round a course than someone good in an MPS/700, just faster than I would ordinarily managed in an MPS/700 or anything else for that matter.

So I guess it gets down to how badly do I want to do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 6:35pm
You could put some conditions in e.g. Full payment only if blah blah blah. If they're confident in the design, it shouldn't be a problem.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 7:39pm
I'd go for an RC model of it first to test the concept, and if that seems to work, then go on to producing a prototype of the real thing. The chances of this concept working straight out of the box are small, but if you are willing to try and try again, you may come up with the version that ticks the boxes. This was the advantage of building in plywood - you could knock together a prototype over a few weekends to see if a new shape would work.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 7:43pm
I think you need to ask the design guys for their brutal opinion on the pros and cons of the design and whether they believe it has merit.  I actually think you should go for the temporary version.  There are a lot of great boats out there that whilst they might not perfectly suit your wants and needs, if you boat doesn't work out at least there are classes to fall back on.  Whereas, if you go for the full blown working version and it turns out to be a pile of sh!te, you've lost a lot of money which you won't be able to sell on to get some money back to put into a tried and tested working boat.  
If the temporary version works so well that you'd wished you'd gone for the full blown working version, at least you can sit bak with the satisfaction that it can really work and that your ideas were right all along. 
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tickler View Drop Down
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Posts: 895 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I'd go for an RC model of it first to test the concept, and if that seems to work, then go on to producing a prototype of the real thing. The chances of this concept working straight out of the box are small, but if you are willing to try and try again, you may come up with the version that ticks the boxes. This was the advantage of building in plywood - you could knock together a prototype over a few weekends to see if a new shape would work.


I did wonder about RC but can you have a dinghy without a moving crew? Also since some of our correspondents are worried about performance on waves can they be simulated in miniature? How about a home made testing tank?
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 9:58pm
There is an RC dinghy with a crew on a bar that flips round, and when sailing it looks like he is on a trapeze. Like a mini RS600.
 
In this case, though, a simple weighted keel would be fine - it is the general concept that is being tested, and it would be better to design the model to suit the scale, but using the design ideas, to see if it works at all. You could almost just start with a foot long free sailing model, just to see what happens in real life with a boat that shape.
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Menace View Drop Down
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Posts: 296 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Menace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 11 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by Doug.H

I think you need to ask the design guys for their brutal opinion on the pros and cons of the design and whether they believe it has merit.  I actually think you should go for the temporary version.........
 
I'd be suprised if they say it's a bad idea if theres a lot of money being thrown at them to build the boat. Very sceptical about the notion that the boat will beat an MPS round the course, I'd like to know how they formed that opinion unless it's just a very rough guestimate. Very good point about going for the temporary version Doug though.
 
Quick and dirty way to test the concept, put a scale model together of the V-Twin and create a model of an MPS at the same scale. Find a flattish lake on a calm day, and tow them both behind a rib with a load cell attached to the tow rope. Which ever is shown the larger load has the higher resistance. You'll need to ensure correct draft, centre of gravity, etc and not everything will be scalable but if the V-Twin shows a lot higher load than the MPS, I'd be asking a lot of questions of your design team.........
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Joined: 10 Aug 08
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 11 at 12:48am
Originally posted by Menace

Originally posted by Doug.H

I think you need to ask the design guys for their brutal opinion on the pros and cons of the design and whether they believe it has merit.  I actually think you should go for the temporary version.........
 
I'd be suprised if they say it's a bad idea if theres a lot of money being thrown at them to build the boat. Very sceptical about the notion that the boat will beat an MPS round the course, I'd like to know how they formed that opinion unless it's just a very rough guestimate. Very good point about going for the temporary version Doug though.
 
Quick and dirty way to test the concept, put a scale model together of the V-Twin and create a model of an MPS at the same scale. Find a flattish lake on a calm day, and tow them both behind a rib with a load cell attached to the tow rope. Which ever is shown the larger load has the higher resistance. You'll need to ensure correct draft, centre of gravity, etc and not everything will be scalable but if the V-Twin shows a lot higher load than the MPS, I'd be asking a lot of questions of your design team.........

I didn't say it would beat an MPS round a course, I said it would beat me sailing an MPS round a course in breezy weather. I.E. I could get this round, and probably fairly quickly whereas I couldn't and nor can a lot of folk, get an MPS or 700 or a lot of other so called 'fast' boats, once the winds up.

The whole problem is that every 'aspirational' fast modern well canvassed boat is beyond the reach of most average helms, that is what is trying to be addressed here. The RS100 to a certain extent does this, but in my view still isn't 'easy' enough to sail. 

What I'm trying to prove, is that Fast need not be difficult, nor uncomfortable, nor overly strenuous, that's the whole point.


Edited by G.R.F. - 30 Jan 11 at 12:55am
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WoodenBoatLuvver View Drop Down
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Posts: 40 		Post Options Post Options   Quote WoodenBoatLuvver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 11 at 4:31am
ClapSo we're right back with wood Streakers again.
Much more pallatable & easier to digestcontest.
 
Bio degradeable plastic?
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