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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ovington Laser
    Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:50am
There is little parallel here between a 'Golf' and a 'Seat' at all - and as most know they are both VW group anyway along with the Skoda versions.    Even in your example if the price difference was 40%+ 'Golf' sales would plumet .. but VW group would still make a good crust.


To me it is looking increasingly like a group of rival manufacturers arguing about the rights and technical issues associated  with 'Betamax' or 'VHS' products.... when the 'ship' was starting to go down and when residial demand is sliding away.    The world has moved on and that is that.  The Laser/ICLA products are well into 'cash-cow' territory and have been for years - ie milk the product for cash, and as much as possible of that too  - for here there will be no further growth or likely market penetration !!.... and 'rivals' with a virtually identical product and a real grudge to boot.    On top of that ICLA and their new friends have more to fear from the technical upstarts like the Aero, and far eastern 'me-too' future rivals in market areas that could still take to sailing big time, than any rump of historical Laser bulders.   



The only part of the game for ILCA remaining is the '5 circus ring' endorsement surely - but would anybody really want their future sales hanging by that thin thread - so easily cut ?   Take that away and all that will be left is the 'generic'  version buyers (cos the 'purists' will have transferred their loyalties to the next 'Olympic' class or its feeders).   The generic builder of the 'Laser'  conversally might well still persist, even then, if it keeps to a very tight price related strategy..   They would build where they do today at first but then look to far eastern partnerships and production in the longer term. 


In summary the ILCA concept faces two major threats 1) 'Better' more technically advanced alternatives - some even already built by their new builder friends  2) Lower cost rivals with almost identical 'Laser' products ...   Threats from both directions.   What a place to end up ....  not  Confused  


Edited by Cirrus - 05 Oct 20 at 8:55am
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Late starter View Drop Down
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:35am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by 423zero

Can't see ILCA outselling Laser, nearly £3,000 dearer.
But it’s never as simple as that . Why to people pay more for a golf than a seat. Because residuals are higher. People will pay more because of this . Because you can sail a ILCA in more places and more events than you can sail LPE boat .
I think that's probably true at first, as "official" ILCA's with their price premium are going to be mandatory for serious class/nats/Olympic etc level racing and guys sailing at this level are the sort of folk who will buy new boats. But how many grassroots sailors are going to spend £6.5k on a new ILCA or even £4-5k for a second hand one to sail at club level ?   I think the ILCA is likely to depreciate badly in the long term due to brand confusion and price competion from LPE.  I just don't think there are enough "serious" ILCA/Laser sailors who will need an "official" boat compared to the mass of club level/recreational sailors who LPE will target. But hey, I don't sail Lasers any more so I could be wrong !
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Cirrus

Why so expensive anyway ?  Polyester, single skin, minimal labour cost input, simple extruded alloy tube spars, and sails that are really low cost to made.  Nothing wrong with any of that btw - if the price reflects it.     


The deck is foam sandwich and always has been. Ovi are probably working to tighter tolerances = increased labour time. And they have new tooling/protoyping to pay for. With the situation regarding rival classes they probably want to recoup these costs and hopefully earn some money out of the class before the end of the current Olympic class cycle.

I agree they seem expensive, and I agree that the LPE product must be a concern (And they no longer have a reason to work to tight tolerances and dont have tooling costs to recoup). But I can see why they might choose to pitch at the price level they've chosen. They people who want the boat the most and are most likely to buy are already locked into the system and have little choice - thats how it is with s SMOD.


Edited by Paramedic - 05 Oct 20 at 8:30am
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 20 at 6:12am
Depends on who has the deepest pockets and the nerve to take it to the wire, wouldn't take a lot of money to set up a series, plus you have the big opens, when they restart. Aero going to be more affected by ILCA than Laser.
Robert
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Can't see ILCA outselling Laser, nearly £3,000 dearer.


But it’s never as simple as that . Why to people pay more for a golf than a seat. Because residuals are higher. People will pay more because of this . Because you can sail a ILCA in more places and more events than you can sail LPE boat .
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:13pm
... think it comes down to the old adage being selected as an Olympic class is a blessing and a curse.

Shall we take that as more 'curse' than 'blessing' in reality ?   .. rather it looks very much like the 'old guard' fighting over something that the rest of the world has quietly moved beyond now and cares even less about.   The original Laser concept, drive and ideals abandoned long long ago, seemingly by all parties involved.   There are few rich pickings or glory left for anyone now and certainly not enough to do more than delay further decline.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 10:09pm
As below ..

Edited by Cirrus - 04 Oct 20 at 10:14pm
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tink View Drop Down
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Posts: 789 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 7:45pm
Cirrus, think it comes down to the old adage being selected as an Olympic class is a blessing and a curse.


Edited by tink - 04 Oct 20 at 7:53pm
Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 7:21pm

Why so expensive anyway ?  Polyester, single skin, minimal labour cost input, simple extruded alloy tube spars, and sails that are really low cost to made.  Nothing wrong with any of that btw - if the price reflects it.

For 95%+ of the sailing public paying more than a very token premium for a 'legitimate' product is simply not going to hack it.  Where does the premium go and what 'extra value' is really worth that difference.  Of course if you are equipping a squadie then bank of mum&dad may help bridge the gap .. but regular 'Joe public'? – ie the people who sail not every week, rarely away from their home club but do maybe on holiday once a year ?  Clubs have been accepting 'training' sails at local level for years as 'equal', it is not a big step to accept seemingly almost identical hulls etc. ..Not everyone is bothered about official Open circuit racing either and a 'pirate' series could soon emerge almost instantly if it were deemed important.  After all if there is any subtle difference between the two it is not likely to be as large as that between say a 1 year old boat and a brand new one anyway !!      

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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Oct 20 at 7:09pm
Private buyers who only handicap race won't pay ILCA money, people at clubs with ILCA/Laser fleets are only buyers I can see.
Robert
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