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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Olympic Classes
    Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 9:50am
Bumble, I agree with all of that. However there are nice chunks of lottery money coming into sailing clubs here and there, and I suspect that the visibility of sailing as a sport Britain actually wins some medals in, helps to achieve that. So I still think Olympic sailing benefits the grassroots.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Blobby

Originally posted by dinghysolutions

Take the B14 worlds just run, all either from Uk or AUS. How does that make it "international".

Last time I looked Oz was now an independent country... so I guess that means there were at least 2 countries participating..and since they are on opposite sides of the world it definitely includes both the north & south hemisphere as well as the east and west hemisphere.  You can't get more international and global than that surely?



Errrr, yes, surely you CAN get a lot more international than just two out of the world's 258 (or whatever) sovereign countries participating!

Doesnt It make it a bit of a mockery when you get some classes which have "worlds" that have competitors from two, three or four nations, and others that have competitors from over 60 - yet they are both classified the same?

This is not knocking the B14 guys who all seem very nice and good sailors. But, like the "nationals" I did last week that had sailors from only 3 cities, it's very different from events with greater numbers of potential entrants and a wider spread .
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Jamie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 10:42am
Originally posted by Blobby

Originally posted by dinghysolutions

Take the B14 worlds just run, all either from Uk or AUS. How does that make it "international".

Last time I looked Oz was now an independent country... so I guess that means there were at least 2 countries participating..and since they are on opposite sides of the world it definitely includes both the north & south hemisphere as well as the east and west hemisphere.  You can't get more international and global than that surely?

Doesn't even come close to what the isaf regulations have to say on qulification as an international class, and I think it struggles on recognized class status as well if indeed it is only the Brits and Aussies competing.

http://www.sailing.org/regulations/2006_partV.PDF

for International: 6 member national authourities from 3 continents and a boats per country qualification.

for Recognized: at least four member national authorities or 3 member authourities from 2 continents, and a boats per country qualification. 

I can't think of hearing about many b14s from other places, certainly in enough numbers to meet the boats per country quota. So I can only assume that isaf has used 26.2.1 to waive the requirement in the B14's case as apparently it serves a "unique aspect of sailing."   So internationally recognized on a technicality. Other classes have to call that event the interdominions or something. Not exactlu "international." great boat though.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 10:59am
It does look as if they are in trouble numbers wise. This is from their latest report. They need 5 more boats in Japan to maintain status.


Name National Association member countries paid in 2004

Australia, Japan, UK,   

Name six Countries & number of members that represent the ISAF minimum criteria

(1) Australia - 35,
(2) Great Britain - 55,
(3) France - 3,
(4) Ireland - 2,
(5) Japan - 15,
(6) Switzerland - 2.


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Jon Emmett View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 11:19am

Observation Trials – Women’s High Performance Multi-crewed Dinghy

In November 2005, ISAF approved Submission 077-05 from the Danish Sailing Association proposing an Observation Trials for a Women’s High Performance Multi-Crewed Dinghy in the Summer/Autumn of 2006.

In order to give a more realistic timescale for manufacturers to respond to the invitation to participate in the trials, the Executive Committee has agreed to amend the original observation trials date from 2006 to Spring 2007, most probably in April. The fundamental criteria which the boats to be evaluated will be:

  • High Performance – The dinghy must be able to sail faster off the wind than on the wind;
  • Main Target – Female crews (average combined weight 120-140 kgs)
  • Safe – Easy to recover by the crew after capsize and without any external help.
  • Lowest cost as possible – The lightest hull weight possible, targeting a price of €14,500 (Euros), ex-works, ready to sail. Closed class rules.
  • Optional Characteristics – Twin Trapeze. Asymmetric Spinnaker.

In addition, the class must have the unquestioned ability to meet the requirements of International Class status within a reasonable time, along with worldwide availability of materials and opportunity for construction.

Most recent trials have been held in Torbole, Lake Garda, Italy and in Quiberon, France. ISAF will consider these and other venues to host the observation trials in Spring 2007.

The timing will allow due time for consideration of the outcome of the trials for further debate at the 2007 ISAF Annual Conference in Athens, Greece.

The full invitation and event brief will be issued soon, but in the meantime any queries should be directed to secretariat@isaf.co.uk.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Bumble

Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE

If we take Sailing out of the '3 ringed circus' where does the funding go that the government and national bodies  gives our sport to obtain succesfull results.........  It goes to another sport.

What about the research and development that comes from this funding......  It no longer happens.

Yeah, where would our sport be without knowing which cut of Finn sail or which Tornado shape is a litle bit faster? And what would happen if we didn't have a sports nutritionist for each competitor? What would happen to us if there weren't a few paid campaigners? I frankly think the sport would fold, nobody would do it any more, the world will stop turning and life as we know it would cease............ or would it just be the same without some of the worst sailing TV coverage to watch every 4 years

OK here we go for you.........  These developments filter down into other classes...  Such as the latest sail cuts, shape, design and cloth.  Rig tuning, equiptment and operating systems, sailing techniques and stlyes.......  These are all developed at a FAR GREATER rate in the likes of the Olympics and AC than in any non pro or semi pro International race circuit and DOES filter down into other classes benifiting them.

Originally posted by Bumble

Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE

What happens to the industries and jobs that are involved in Olympic sailing......  They disapear, some may move to another sport that does get the Olympic funding.

Heaven forbid... companies will only be able to sell a boat if its anygood and individuals might have to get a real job and just sail at the weekend like everyone else..... doen't bear thinking about does it.

Olympic rig development = testing MANY masts and sails.  This = jobs in the related industries.  Also means cheap good gear made available to local / non Olympic Teams for cheap as the Olympic teams discard the gear that they do not select or after using a few times and wants to re-new.

Sailing coaches, sail makers (that work along side team), Sport Nutritionists, Physiotherapists, Psychologists, Doctors, Team Managers ect.......  These jobs will be lost.  Most of these could move onto working with the new Olympic sport but Coaches and Sail makers will loose work and many may not have a job.....  Yes these are peoples careers on the line.  Jobs created in our sport because of the Olympics.

Originally posted by Bumble

Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE

ISAF has already proposeed to have a mutli class (Olympic Class) world championship at the one venue in each 4 year cycle.......  They could extend that to every year or include other International classes.  They also already conduct ISAF Championships and there is nothing stopping them from increasing the number of classes that attennds........  But this will not provide the funding, rate of reasearch and development that the Olympic Games produce.

which is never going to work cos the ISAF couldn't give a monkeys about anything that doesn't bring them the kind of cash (for old rope) cow they have in the Olympics at present.

Didn't realise you were a specialist in ISAF policies......

The cash that is distributed through our govenment and national sporting bodies does not come from ISAF....  It comes from the tax payer.  These funds are, like it or not, reserved for medal results at the Olympics....  For sports that are in the Olympics.  If sailing is not there, then the money goes elswhere.

Originally posted by Bumble

Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE

The Olympics is important for more reasons than because we support it.  It helps support our sport through funding and exposure (little but atleast some), National pride.........  Nothing brings a county together like at the games.
You don't read the Sun do you?

W.T F

Originally posted by Bumble

Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE

As for TV crews and media exposure......  They should take a good look at the Volvo Champions Series...............  Because it works.
Works because its good... which is the exact opposite reason why the Olympics doesn't work. Give the sponsors something in return and you've got a good event. Give them nothing and it doesn't even pay for its self (enter Olympic sailing stage right). I'm with Dinghy (real) solutions. Scrap it and get on with the real sailing. 'What would happen to development?'........ it would stay in the ball park of the development classes, doing it for free for everyone elses benifit, like its always been.

Read my comments.....  The format in the Olympics could be better and I believe they should look at the Volvo format......  That was my point.....  What is yours???

Your question...  "What will happen to development"...... Answer, it will slow down dramaticaly.  It would not be for free but will be at the sailors personal expense.  You will not be able to draw from the government financed development.... Another sport will.

And "Like it's always been".....  Didn't realise the Olympics and AC were recent developments.



Edited by Tornado_ALIVE
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 11:49am

Originally posted by Tornado_ALIVE.

  "What will happen to development"...... Answer, it will slow down dramaticaly.

It is pretty questionable whether intensive development applied to a handful of tightly-defined OD classes actually has that much effect on the sport as a whole. AC is different since 12M and IACC boats are development classes, not ODs.



Edited by Stefan Lloyd
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Tornado_ALIVE View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 12:06pm

Hi Stefan,

A good example is the Torando's adoption of the new rig and how it has influenced new and previous design spinnaker boats especialy when it comes to layout, system used in the jibs and spinnaker retrieval, influences in rig settings and mast rakes, sail cuts (particularly spinnaker), sail material, ropes / lines as well as techniques in down wind sailing across different ranges.  The other boats may or may not get there eventually, but the Tornado realy streamlined the development in these other classes, producing boats that were not only faster but more user freindly and higher quality. 

You can not beat full time profesion research / development.

There is still a lot of development in OD classes that are not bound by single manufacturer.  There is still even development in sailing styles in SMOD.



Edited by Tornado_ALIVE
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Bumble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Tornado - Alive I tell you

Sailing coaches, sail makers (that work along side team), Sport Nutritionists, Physiotherapists, Psychologists, Doctors, Team Managers ect.......  These jobs will be lost.  Most of these could move onto working with the new Olympic sport but Coaches and Sail makers will loose work and many may not have a job.....  Yes these are peoples careers on the line.  Jobs created in our sport because of the Olympics.

Call me a stinking capitalist but I don't think anyone has the right to a job, just because they have it already, no matter how it is paid for. The worry that sports nutritionists or coaches will have to do a real job is motivation enough for me to axe the whole thing.
Originally posted by Tornado ALIVE

Read my comments.....  The format in the Olympics could be better and I believe they should look at the Volvo format......  That was my point.....  What is yours???
My point is really just to sit on the fence and wind you up. I do however side with myself and Stefans last post, the development argument for keeping the Olympics is weak, very weak. When I said 'like its always been' I am identifying non profit, non Olympic campaigners have been driving the development of sailing as a sport for as long as it has been as we know it. The Tornado may be a better boat for it, but boats in general have improved/developed in spite of the Olympics, not because of it.

I love the look of the Volvo format, but the Olympics cannot accomodate that level of sponsor satifaction and as mentioned before detracts from truely great events such as by parading as the summit of sporting achievement - which it is cos you say it is.... right?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Prince Buster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 06 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by Bumble

Call me a stinking capitalist


You're a stinking capitalist
international moth - "what what?"
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