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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 10:05am
Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen,


Its fairly easy to imagine clubs with paid staff and no duties or other volunteer requirements from the members, and thus matching membership fees. Indeed I've seen it advocated here. Once the membership fees are up in the sky the rest sorts itself out.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 11:08am
JimC,
I don't think that's what he meant, a few clubs have proffesional staff who don't charge sky high fees, people who are time poor and don't want to waste time by doing duty can find clubs with staff, I have no issue with this, article implied volunteer clubs going the sky high fees route and no clunkers, my club has 50 50 split new/old, the 50% of old boats also contain legacy boats, which for the main part are in excellent conditon.

Across the two articles their was also mention of RYA encouraging clubs to keep best parking spaces etc for members who sail clubs recognised class, how can an organisation that pushes elitist practice be said to represent sailing.
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Pierre

Originally posted by Do Different

Not sure what you're saying Pierre. 

Attitude to risk has changed and it is difficult to generalise.

My mate's Dad was a respected Osprey sailor in the heyday, minimal safety clothing at sea but according to my mate he simply did not capsize. Nowadays with better clothing and more safety cover there seems to be a greater willingness to push harder and accept crashing as part of the game.
  

I think what I am saying is I get a bit tired of people's absolute reliance of safety boats, and the like, every time they go for a paddle, and seem unable to accept personal responsibility for their own actions. Be a bit brave chaps and mtfu.
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Edited by Sam.Spoons - 28 Jan 18 at 12:21pm
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen,


Its fairly easy to imagine clubs with paid staff and no duties or other volunteer requirements from the members, and thus matching membership fees. Indeed I've seen it advocated here. Once the membership fees are up in the sky the rest sorts itself out.


As an advocate of that very model, I’m sadly still firmly of the belief there isn’t the ROI for it to work... yet. In general, dinghy sailors are simply too parsimonious around the comparable cost of leisure and sadly, those who would be willing to pay simply don’t need to when ‘Muggins and his band of 6 reliable extras over there’ are prepared to do it all for free

Yes, that attitude stinks, but it’s the sad reality of many clubs..
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 9:04pm
Of course I had to look up ROI before I could respond.

I do not have the conceit to say you are wrong but I do feel able to disagree.

I think most people may hear parsimonious and take it as a derogatory term. I could myself take that view but actually prefer to see it as a positive "an unwillingness to spend money" is really not such an insult. I would say a good trait to pursue in the interests of keeping sailing accessible to all.

Now Muggins, that is really not such an easy sit. I haven't looked up the slang definition but I assume it means a person who readily accepts being taken advantage of. I would suggest that many you deride see themselves as worthwhile contributors and willing givers of knowledge for the benefit of an activity they love.

"comparable cost of leisure" I really do rail against the notion that leisure is a product that can always be bought. What about an alternative notion, put some time in and make it happen. Yes I've heard the argument, it makes financial sense for high earners to spent their valuable time at work to pay the grateful poor or students to support their leisure. It is worth dwelling on that cost is not always proportional to value.
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craiggo View Drop Down
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Of course I had to look up ROI before I could respond.
I do not have the conceit to say you are wrong but I do feel able to disagree.
I think most people may hear parsimonious and take it as a derogatory term. I could myself take that view but actually prefer to see it as a positive "an unwillingness to spend money" is really not such an insult. I would say a good trait to pursue in the interests of keeping sailing accessible to all.
Now Muggins, that is really not such an easy sit. I haven't looked up the slang definition but I assume it means a person who readily accepts being taken advantage of. I would suggest that many you deride see themselves as worthwhile contributors and willing givers of knowledge for the benefit of an activity they love.
"comparable cost of leisure" I really do rail against the notion that leisure is a product that can always be bought. What about an alternative notion, put some time in and make it happen. Yes I've heard the argument, it makes financial sense for high earners to spent their valuable time at work to pay the grateful poor or students to support their leisure. It is worth dwelling on that cost is not always proportional to value.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 18 at 11:08pm
I don’t disagree with you... in an ideal world both models would exist and we would have choice.

As for value vs cost - well the market decided these factors, how much value one attributes to their time is a uniquely personal experience and may differ at different stages of life in my experience.

Edit: as for the muggins’s of the world, actually I don’t deride them and also agree that without them clubs would crash. When you do place value on your time, you appreciate their contribution more than those who sit somewhere in the middle, oblivious to it all and happy trudging a path of status quo of equitable financial contribution but with a huge imbalance of sweat equity.

Edited by turnturtle - 28 Jan 18 at 11:38pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 10:07am
Don't you enforce a muggins rota? Isn't being muggins a pre requisite of membership?
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 10:18am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by 423zero

One section of article mentioned a return to pre war elitist sailing for the fairly wealthy, can't see how this could happen,


Its fairly easy to imagine clubs with paid staff and no duties or other volunteer requirements from the members, and thus matching membership fees. Indeed I've seen it advocated here. Once the membership fees are up in the sky the rest sorts itself out.

Jim C. Exactly! More importantly, these are the conditions that are also perfect for the wider introduction of a 'pay and play' franchise - and yes, that too has been floated on this forum and I'm aware of clubs that are actively looking at it. 

My researches have shown however that for P&P to work effectively (I'd define that as good boats, the sort we'd want to sail/own ourselves, to be maintained in very good order and in sufficient numbers that punters don't turn up to an empty dinghy park - plus the management and oversight) will not be a cheap option. This may well tie in with TTs comments about our readiness to pay for what we do. The convenience factor would be high but it may well come at a price that yes, aims the service at those who can afford....and are happy - to pay!

D
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jan 18 at 10:46am
Originally posted by iGRF

Don't you enforce a muggins rota? Isn't being muggins a pre requisite of membership?

indeed- don't most clubs use that cheapo muggins software called Dutyman?   You'll forgive the lack of gender etiquette in the name when the licence is only £85 inc VAT per annum.

However this is only the tip of the iceberg....  true mugginses do far more than their allocated duties.  Gawd bless them...  

So typically we have 100% of the membership contributing an equal share to the financial commitment to running the club.  Yet, let's say, 10% of the membership (probably less), with an awkwardly disproportionate responsibility for the leg work needed to make the activities of the club happen.    No commercial operation would run a model where everyone receives the same renumeration, irrespective of the type and quality of the work they put in.  On a grander scale that's exactly where communism failed - it's leads to power imbalance, corruption and ultimate failure.  

Platitudes like "you get out what you put in" might help maintain the spirit of volunteering for a little longer until those individuals burn out and pick up the golf sticks, but they fail to address the one seismic shift in personal economics over the past couple of decades:  

Today's primary asset in 1st world economies is not money, it is time.  So it makes infinite sense that the those with more time that they are willing to commit to community activities (e.g. students and those on pensions), should not have to pay the same as those who lack it.

If a 'club' model is to become sustainable into the 21st Century, I think this change in fee structure needs to happen to enable a better balance of the time vs cash equation.  Or alternatively forget the notion of clubs and commodores... let the cliff edge happen and hopefully commercial sailing centres will rise from the ashes offering a breadth of services for example training, racing and expedition tourism and all in decent boats with lease options for those who don't want the ultimate commitment of boat ownership. 




Edited by turnturtle - 29 Jan 18 at 10:51am
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