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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 12:27am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Originally posted by RS400atC


The more similar the boats, the more seriously you can take it.
A PY result between an RS400 and a Laser 4000 in F3 is a fair indicator of who sailed better, a PY result between a Mirror and a Musto skiff is a convenient and fun way of awarding an overall prize.

Time spent fiddling the numbers would be better spent thinking about our own boatspeed.
Actual numbers should only be discussed with a beer in your hand!

Fleet racing maybe fairly superior in terms of boat on boat sailing, but these big handicaps are fairly serious affairs.  Can't remember the last time there was £1000 on the table for winning all the races at any 400 event.

They are usually raced by most of the top sailors in each fleet respectively, so the fact you find handicap racing, fleet racing poorer uglier brother is kind of sad.  As i would say its as if not more competitive then most RS fleet racing.

Whoever wins, someone will say their handicap suited them on the day, in those conditions, because the wind died/increased/backed/veered etc.
As a participant, yes fleet racing is way above arguing about correcting numbers for wind/tide/phase of the moon.
If you seriously think handicap is so much better than fleet racing, shall we have a PY class for the Olympics?
PY racing is good fun, but there is no absolute justification for the results. The numbers have no basis in science other than past results. You won't get 5 people on here to agree what the PY's should be for the ten most popular classes at any of the events.
£1000 prize money is not necessary where the competition stands on its own merit.
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winging it View Drop Down
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Posts: 3958 		Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 7:10am
Grafham will be trialling the pys in their pursuit on the 18th.  Should be interesting.  Here are the start times:

http://www.grafham.org/?p=3786
the same, but different...

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Ruscoe View Drop Down
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 7:27am
Someone may say its down to their handicap, but then again whoever wins the 400 nationals then at least one person will say they get to pick and weigh their own 400 from RS.  What about all the differences between old and new 400's now.  New sail designs, carbon poles, hull materials.  There can always be questions raised about the winning boat which actually cheapens the fleet racing ethos.

I never said handicap racing is better then fleet racing, but i get pretty sick with people slating it and being rather disrespectful about it and the 100's of people that enter these races each year; with throw away comments like there is no Justification to the results.  This is clearly wrong, you only have to look at the winners to understand the best sailors win...or Does Jim Hunt only win because he sails a Phantom, or Andy Smith because he sails a 5oh.  Maybe Ben Mcgrane is just a club sailor with a bandit of a I14....

One thing is for sure these races really are the true show ground of the grass routes of our sport, and cheapening them with throw away comments is pretty bad form in my opinion.


Edited by Ruscoe - 02 Dec 11 at 7:29am

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PeterV View Drop Down
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Posts: 131 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 12:28pm
The answer of course is to sail in the handicap class for fun, in whatever boat you fancy, and sail in the laser fleet to find out if you're any good!
PeterV
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by PeterV

The answer of course is to sail in the handicap class for fun, in whatever boat you fancy, and sail in the laser fleet to find out if you're any good!


very, very close to the answer I arrived at some time ago and have happily applied since

"The answer of course is to sail in the handicap class for fun, in whatever boat you fancy, and sail in an OD fleet to find out if you're any good!"
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by getafix

Originally posted by PeterV

The answer of course is to sail in the handicap class for fun, in whatever boat you fancy, and sail in the laser fleet to find out if you're any good!


very, very close to the answer I arrived at some time ago and have happily applied since

"The answer of course is to sail in the handicap class for fun, in whatever boat you fancy, and sail in an OD fleet to find out if you're any good!"

I would vary that a little, having had it confirmed that I'm pretty average in one-design fleets, I sail one-design when I can, to improve a bit.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 1:44pm
It is of course possible to be good at handicap racing - the tactical skills are rather different - and crap at class fleet racing, without the boat being the reason.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 11 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe


......or Does Jim Hunt only win because he sails a Phantom, or Andy Smith because he sails a 5oh.  Maybe Ben Mcgrane is just a club sailor with a bandit of a I14....

......

A handicap race will show that any of these guys sail a lot better than I do.
I don't think it reliably shows which of them sailed better on the day.
On the day, you can usually make predictions about how well the Fireballs are going to do, based on the conditions.
I suspect all the winners you mention do quite a bit of one-class racing to hone their skills....

I think it's actually a positive thing that the results don't mean ever so much.
Many of the better sailors in any fleet would be unhappy to come in the bottom half of a class open meeting, but nobody minds who came 2/3 down the Bloody Mary. That's not going to work for the whole season, but it's a good thing to do in the winter.

As for your tirade about RS400's, I have no problem with the performance of my old spec boat, with a 3-figure number, against new spec boats, but spinnakers make excellent xmas gifts...
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Posts: 314 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sprint Bob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 11 at 12:13am
Here are the latest details of the Sailjuice Global Warm-up series:
 
 
Cheers
Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 11 at 7:10am
Hi Bob,

I can't make it to Grafham I'm afraid, but do you know what handicap the Icon might have for the series? I sail off the suggested 1020 at Chew but I know QMSC has a reputation for giving new classes a punitive handicap at the Bloody Mary. I hope to do the BM and Stevie Nich - I'm not expecting to win but am hoping not to give the Merlins a headstart!
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