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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Whinging Thread
    Posted: 14 Apr 11 at 11:36pm
Electronic scoring in fencing dates back to before 1936 and (although I just mess around at a local fencing club) I've yet to see anything as "modern" as a Laser in the design and technology of fencing kit.  So Andy's basic point appears to be quite correct.  There are many, many sports that reject many technological advances in performance.

Similarly, swimming (brought up earlier) is a classic example of a sport RETREATING from technological progress.  The semi-buoyant streamlined suits that enabled 130 world records to be broken in about one season were banned in 2010 - see http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/sports/25swim.html

The suits caused a massive controversy and some call for all the records created by swimmers using them to be struck off.  Many of the swimmers were against them - at least one likened using a faster suit to doping. So clearly, elite competitors in other sports completely understand and support the concept of banning technological performance improvements.

The article notes that the super-fast suits will go "the way of square-grooved clubs in men’s professional golf", which is a reference that golf also uses a lot of gear with restricted performance - you are simply not allowed to create a golf ball that flies longer than a certain distance.  Clubs are also restricted in design and performance.

Cycling is heavily restricted, even the Tour De France and Olympic stuff. Contador's bike is as slow compared to the ultimate bicycle as the Laser is compared to the Moth.  The most prestigious record is restricted to gear of the same basic design age as the Laser itself.

The oldest international dinghy class of all is actually on a resurgence at the moment and is considering applying for International status once more.  The fact that a 1912 12 footer attracted almost as many entries to its biggest international regatta as the Moths (the most advanced dinghy class) did seems to show that technological progress is NOT required.

None of this is saying that we shouldn't have classes that develop, it's just saying that any claim that classes MUST develop (or develop faster than the Laser) may not be correct.

It's great that some kids look at a C2 rig with interest, but the attraction of such sails certainly isn't universal, given that the facts indicate that most people don't buy classes with film sails.  Well, in windsurfing they do, because windsurfing chases "progress" - and it's about 8% as big as it was in dacron days. Hmmmmm........


Edited by Chris 249 - 14 Apr 11 at 11:37pm
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 7:50am
Originally posted by Chris 249


Cycling  The most prestigious record is restricted to gear of the same basic design age as the Laser itself.
 
Thanks Chris, you've expanded my point rather well.
I'd forgotten the 'backward' technological step that had been taken in cycling with the one hour record. All the records set since Eddy Merckx 1972 broke it (at altitude) have been shelved sweeping aside all those set with disc wheels and aero type (tri) bars with increasingly radical streamlining and more ergonomically efficient positions. It is again now attempted on a 'standard' format track bike with old style drop handllebar position.
As an aside, I remember treating myself to a set of Cinelli Spinaci clip on bars back in the early nineties, promptly before the governing body banned them from massed start road races, anyway, they turned out to be an expensive set of bicycle storage hooks in the shed!
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Posts: 72 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 8:00am
Not to disagree with the whole point, but it is certainly not only "elite competitors" that understand theses things or whose views count.


And Actually the argument that we Don't need to develop any further doesn't go far enough for some people. For example The environmentalist James lovelock argues that it is essential the we MUST regress to survive. Of course there are probably exceptions where a bit of evolution might help (and this probably the only time the laser and GRF gall in the same category ;-) )
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 1:57pm
This appears to be careering off on a tangent again... IMO it's not about evolution, design development, sailors opinions, class 'values' or anything else... it's about money
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by getafix

This appears to be careering off on a tangent again... IMO it's not about evolution, design development, sailors opinions, class 'values' or anything else... it's about money


Is it about money as in "The Laser is a great value for money boat you can race in a club fleet pretty much anywhere, have a well attended domestic circuit and, if you are good enough travel the world sailing them" or about money as in "They are a bunch of crooks, ripping people off with huge margins and forcing people to only buy spares from them"?
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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Posts: 298 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by getafix

This appears to be careering off on a tangent again...  

Yeah, but it was a good tangent, with some well thought-out points of view. 
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by getafix

This appears to be careering off on a tangent again... IMO it's not about evolution, design development, sailors opinions, class 'values' or anything else... it's about money


Is it about money as in "The Laser is a great value for money boat you can race in a club fleet pretty much anywhere, have a well attended domestic circuit and, if you are good enough travel the world sailing them" or about money as in "They are a bunch of crooks, ripping people off with huge margins and forcing people to only buy spares from them"?


Ohhhhhh now I geddit, you want sailing to be UNLIKE cars, TVs, computers, bikes, mobile phones, cameras, boilers, printers, satellites, commercial aircraft, military aircraft etc... etc.... etc....

Let me assure you, indeed guarantee you, that if I had (or thought I could get) the rights to a 10k+ selling boat I wouldn't be letting someone else in to the game and spoiling the view from my mansion by helping themselves to some of the margin.

Just 'cos it's fun, doesn't mean someone don't expect to make some dough somewhere along the line
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 4:05pm
Not sure I get your point - of course people need to make money, I just can't work out why this thread should be all about money, nor in which direction you are meaning - good or bad.
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ob1 View Drop Down
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Posts: 72 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 6:58pm
Originally posted by getafix

This appears to be careering off on a tangent again... IMO it's not about evolution, design development, sailors opinions, class 'values' or anything else... it's about money

Oh no The Thought Police are out again! Actually this is the whinging version of the thread so there isn't an "on track" to be on.

Edited by ob1 - 16 Apr 11 at 8:33am
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tickel View Drop Down
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Posts: 408 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr 11 at 8:13pm
Sure Chris, let the bicycle develop until it is pretty near perfection then halt development to avoid an arms race. Laser are very long way off that point. There are better developed boats around than Lasers, take Lightning. Roughly as old as Laser but with proper twinned control lines, centre sheeting and a flexible tracked mast. Always cheaper as well. Not content with an already good boat John Claridge took over and made a series of modifications recommended by existing sailors. Altered deck molding, removed the thwart and supplied an optional mylar sail. The boat is now more desirable and becoming very popular. Did a new or modified boat win the Nationals last year? No it was 104, 30 years old retaining its thwart and with a dacron sail. Is the boat now sexier and more comfortable to sail? Yes very much so and that is why so many new boats are being built even though performance seems little improve. Byte is a different proposition because the alterations were so much more radical. When the C2 rig appeared it did render older rigged boats obsolete but the class was dying anyway. Byte should be more popular than it is but its small size puts it into an awkward market sector which is a shame. If laser sailors wish to keep sailing and enjoying lasers then fine but would it really be so difficult to centre sheet it and dual the controls? This would not massively improve performance. Good sailors would still do well in old boats the same as lightning but the boat would be so much nicer to sail.
If I had any money (which I don't) I would produce a C2 type rig for laser hulls and create a new club racing class.
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