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Laser with a carbon mast??
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser with a carbon mast??
    Posted: 25 Apr 22 at 11:11am
Originally posted by eric_c

Originally posted by 423zero

Amazed at the copies of the Laser, the Russian version is almost identical,, got to have been moulded from a genuine one.


Probably made out of either titanium or bakelite and buying one is not 'the done thing' just now?

Sure I’ve seen a pic of a Eastern European Laser copy somewhere, that was open transom . Looked like a supernova from behind  LOL
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 22 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Grumpycat


From my experience I now sail in much windier conditions than I ever did when I owned my lasers in the Dzero. The gust response is night and day different, so much easier to control.
Anyone that can sail a laser can sail a D-zero .
All the Laser problems ( rig, main sheet, foils etc ) we have talked about for the last couple of pages have been corrected as you would expect as it was designed by a man that sailed at the highest level in Lasers. People might say , I would say all that as we all love are own classes don’t we ? 
All I would say is , JUST TRY ONE. I don’t think the dealer is doing demo dayes anymore but if you contact them or better still the class association , on fb or on their website, they will put you in contact with a D-zero owner that will let you have a go in your area. ( any problems message me as I probably have some useful email addresses somewhere. ) 
It’s not a perfect boat, no boat is, but it is a bloody good one  Big smile


I am tempted by the zero as my 'other boat' for PY, but to replace the Laser, you don't need to sell me a boat, you need to sell my club a fleet. The problem is, we've got sailors who are still in touch with the fleet in old Lasers worth a grand or less, maybe spending a couple of hundred quid every 3 years for a replica sail. That's 'inclusivity' for you!
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 22 at 12:21pm
Eric-c. I see now.  Smile

Not a problem for me . I’ve always been a very average sailor and even though I’ve done class racing I don’t find it ‘ special’ or ‘ better ‘ . 
Much rather do  pursuits ( where I am often last boat off ) and see how far I can get in the mixed fleet, second is my best so far in the 8 months I’ve owned the boat.
Everyone to their own though. We all have to get our sailing fun in different ways , after all there is only ever one winner in a race .  Smile


Edited by Grumpycat - 25 Apr 22 at 12:22pm
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 22 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Eric-c. I see now.  Smile

Not a problem for me . I’ve always been a very average sailor and even though I’ve done class racing I don’t find it ‘ special’ or ‘ better ‘ . 
Much rather do  pursuits ( where I am often last boat off ) and see how far I can get in the mixed fleet, second is my best so far in the 8 months I’ve owned the boat.
Everyone to their own though. We all have to get our sailing fun in different ways , after all there is only ever one winner in a race .  Smile

I enjoy a balance of 'class' racing in the Laser, and casual PY racing in other boats. Plus the odd outing in cruiser racing, and hopefully getting back to cross-channel wine-buying trips in a cruiser.
The class racing is the only 'racing' that has meaningful results, but I enjoy other 'sailing'. In PY racing, you can get a lot out ofthe race in terms of tactics, starting, not capsizing and so on, without caring about the results. Likewise, any actual adult ought to be able to race Lasers against people they respect and not sulk if they don't come first.
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 22 at 3:30pm
I have to say class racing in the British moth was fun and and everything you described. My limited  experience of Laser class racing was definitely not something I would ever want to do again.  Smile
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getafix View Drop Down
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Posts: 2143 		Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 22 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by tink

Originally posted by getafix

As an ex-L*ser sailor who would never go back, I do find it still highly amusing that through all the tortuous tussling and grumpily accepted updates "they" have fixed the crappy mast, sail (ish) and controls and still not gotten rid of that total sh1tb0x which is the rudder .... it would be a far more pleasant experience to sail if you could steer properly, particularly in stronger winds

The mistake many make, depending on their weight is thinking they are 20 fit enough to sail  full rig. The Radial / ILCA 6 is an awesome boat for the sub 75kg sailor. Fraction of the cost of an Aero, Solo etc and including regular sail renewal ownership still low, the changes in design have been minimal over the history of the class. I can go to an event within a days drive at least every two weeks in the season. Fantastic quality training frequently available plus more training media most or classes combined. If you’re having issues with handling a Laser then you definitely need to sailing Laser, if you are finding the rudder too small you’re doing something wrong. It’s not the boat it’s the nut on the tiller. As for carbon top mast, when I bend my alloy one I’ll get one still 1000s still in the bank compared to the alternative classes. I could, but won’t sell mine tomorrow and including two new sails and a few other bits cost less the £50 an month over two year 

This is a tired old argument Tink, yes of course keeping the boat flatter helps* with control but the simple fact of the L*ser rudder is the blade is too small and it's raked backwards.  Even rockstars end up with rooster tails off the crappy thing and weather helm.  Just allowing owners to file a groove to allow the blade to go vertical would be a massive help.

*as with all boats
Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 2:10am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by 423zero

Looking at the clones, doesn't appear they have tried to fix any of the issues.

We forget that the Laser was never intended to be what its grown into.

It was supposed to be a beach boat, easy to transport, rig, and quick to get afloat. A job it still does fairly well, but as a racing boat it has niggles and flaws that everyone bar one person that I can see think need sorting.

If the clones are aimed within the same marketplace it doesn't matter. They are unlikely to go out in much more than a F3 and will do the job just as well - it comes down to price.

As a racing boat however..........

Yes and no. The very first sketch was intended to be a beach boat (or actually a "cottage boat" as Ian Bruce or Bruce Kirby told me).  But then, as they said, the inevitable tendency of Ian, Hans and Bruce moved it to more of a performance boat and then they very soon realised that its real niche was not so much as a Sunfish competitor/beach boat, but as a one design racer.  That's why it ended up as quite a different boat to the original "beach boat" concept.


It does have niggle and flaws and yes, it's hard to see why the class can't do a few small things that would cost basically nothing and not obsolete existing boats. You could allow deck pads; create a kit to stop the mainsheet catching; and change the rudder rake. They could all be retrofitted if one wanted to, and they would make the boat better to sail.

However, everything's relative. Any boat is uncomfortable if you are hiking hard enough, and any trap boat seems to have its own issues. For vast numbers of us, the Laser's positives outweigh the negatives.

I've only sailed two of the newer classes brought in to "replace" the Laser but I was fairly underwhelmed. Both of them seemed to lose some of the things I really like in the Laser (ie its ability to roll tack so well and to be steered with heel downwind so much) without giving much improvement in other areas. One of them I found a bit eerie because it seemed to have the characteristics I don't like in skiff types, without the characteristics I do like in skiffs - but others love it and good on 'em.


Edited by CT249 - 26 Apr 22 at 2:17am
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Do Different View Drop Down
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Posts: 1312 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 5:42am
CT249.  Thumbs Up. I pretty much learned to sail in a Laser out of a tidal river via a tight harbour mouth on open sea. When I say learnt to sail, I mean that, how to treat a boat kindly and feel the feed back. I make little pretence to being a good racer but the Laser taught me to be a sympathetic sailor. 
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 6:32am
Originally posted by CT249

However, everything's relative. Any boat is uncomfortable if you are hiking hard enough, and any trap boat seems to have its own issues. For vast numbers of us, the Laser's positives outweigh the negatives

I kind of agree with this, the ability to buy a good one for £1500 or a reasonable one for half that or less if you're careful and know where to look (Goes for any boat) is a major plus point. 

The problem with that particular positive (Lets leave aside speed of rigging, cockpit space [more than a solo] and accessible class racing) is if it isn't a nice boat to sail the vast majority of people will only tolerate it as long as they have to and by that I mean till they get fed up of sailing because of it or can afford something better.

I bought one to sail over covid because it ticked all sorts of boxes that no other boat did in the price range. I sold it a few weeks ago because, frankly, with access to what I regard as proper sailing restored I don't need it. If the rudder worked, mainsheet didn't catch and the sails lasted longer than 15 minutes my Solo might find its position under threat.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 22 at 7:34am
^ Really interested in that comparison to the Solo, Paramedic.  Surely the Solo is quicker to rig, has just as much accessible class racing and a deeper cockpit (albeit, with a shin trap for the unweary)?  Sure you can’t get a competitive Solo for under a grand like you can a Laser, but that lack of depreciation helps come sale time.  I’m not clear what the Laser offered over lockdown that the Solo didn’t other than not caring about the wear and tear on a non-race boat.
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