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Revamping one designs: your experiance

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    Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 11:56am
I like the look of the radial cut jib.  Not sure about the square top, it doesn't make nor should it need to make the 200 look more modern.  I would prefer if i were a 200 sailor, to have the same cut but with a different cloth and a radial cut jib.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 12:16pm
Obviously I'm not a designer or highly educated so I'm here for enlightenment as much as anything.

My understanding was that square tops were most used in powerful setups to blade off excess power automatically, windsurfers & skiffs. With a 200 being at the lower end of the power scale it doesn't seem such an appropriate setup, perhaps that's why it looks wrong.

Carrying on, for a given area could a pin head rig produce more power? Doesn't that broad tip suffer from a lot of losses as more pressure washes round the top than would a fine tip?

Complicated stuff, I guess the answer may not be simple enough for me to fully understand.  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 12:31pm
IMHO any rig benefits from improved gust response, however small or large. The wind varies far faster than any sailor can respond.

As for pressure losses, yes, its complicated but nothing I've studied suggests you'd get more power from a pinhead.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 12:48pm
Thanks Jim. I'm not here to show how clever I am but to ask and gain a little more understanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 12:56pm
Tip losses are very largely dominated by mast length - a longer luff will always be better than a short one, but at the expense of extra heeling moment. The square tip is better in most respects but needs a stiffer mast and higher rig tension to work well. Once the chord is below 900mm or so so the Reynolds number is suboptimal so the bit above the hounds on most traditional rigs is not very effective at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 1:07pm
Thanks. 
 Another piece is added to the jigsaw; the only trouble is each extra piece doesn't get the puzzle any nearer to completion, it just makes it bigger.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 1:22pm
So, re chord < 900mm. What would be the story on the new short footed self tacking jibs vs the genoas of old? Efficiency wise that is, given that an old genoa will have a greater percentage of it's chord >900mm. 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote jaydub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Peaky

You would have thought that it was possible to analyse the designs without going to the expense of building them to tell whether the proposed square top works or not. Goes to show unscientific much dinghy design still is, and how little understanding we have of some key areas.
Therein lies another issue.  Since Mike Lennon's departure, they have no in house dinghy sail design capability.  That and the issue that all their sails are made in the Philippines has led to some interesting development challenges.

I'm verging on the amazed that they haven't had some serious discussions with alternative suppliers like North.

One of the information updates had some interesting responses about the theory of square tops, which I assume must have come from Mike Lennon, who has been doing the design development for Hydes.

Some of this is a bit technical for me, but may be of interest .  It does at least show that the class association hasn't wanted to consider going down the square top route without trying to justify that that approach. The full communication is at:  http://www.rssailing.org/docs/RS200%20Sail%20communication%2013%2001%202015%20low%20res.pdf

The pertinent bits are copied below for convenience.

How will the square top design to deliver the same performance as a standard?

Technical Response:

It can’t deliver the exact same performance in the same way - as having some span width at the head can change the downwash angle (depending on applied depth and twist). They can be made to perform in similar manner depending on set up. A narrow headed main sail will have little or no attached flow near the head (the span width is too narrow) so this part of the sail is nearly always "form drag" with little or no lift. I imagine the vortex rollup is at the head but can’t say for sure. I would estimate the roll up will only move down if the head produces up-wash (negative lift). A square top should be able to get a more efficient L/D ratio. As both sails area are similar and the luff length is the same the form drag on both will be the same (perhaps a little worse on the square head as the head sits in faster moving are stream compared to the bottom and form drag goes up with wind speed squared).

Simple Response:

All this tells us is what we already know - it’s likely the square top will be better in underpowered conditions and the narrow head in over powered conditions. But as the total sail area is the same and the span height is the same there should be little difference overall as we have witnessed to date.

 

How will we ensure that the current crew weight to performance ratio is maintained?

Sail area is the same - span height is the same - equates to same weight to sail performance.


Why do we not need a new rig for the RS200 such as lowers with the Square top configuration?

Sail area is the same. Span height is the same so the load on the mast will be the same. OK so the top 10% of the rig has a little more area and the mid span is a little narrower so we change the load distribution a little

We only need a new rig if the head won’t stand (top mast is too soft to take the load) but there is no evidence of this in testing. In fact the early iteration sails stand up too much (won’t washout) indicating either the sail is too full or the mast too stiff.


Isn't a square top just the current fashion accessory? Does it have longevity?

See question 1 - They are closer to producing an elliptical load distribution and constant downwash angle = most efficient L/D. (Although sails rarely operate with an elliptical span due to too much wash out (twist)). When over powered we are probably getting a small up-wash at the head so span load is defiantly not elliptical. A tip with little more than zero span width (girth) will never have attached flow. So narrow head sails like jibs and older design restricted sails carry the top part of the sail only to support what’s underneath. So if you can support what underneath without carrying the bit above you would have much improved L/D.


Is there likely to be more loading on the rig with a Square top?

We are confident that this will not be an issue - when it’s washed out completely little or no difference - when its carrying a full aero load yes but as the mid sail will be carrying a little less load so based on the span load distribution calculation we are within tolerance.

 

As a female helm will I not find it harder to play the main?

Technical Response:

Same area / same span length - the head of the sail is carrying more load; the middle less. However once we have zero AOA at the head the aero load drops away but form drag is higher — but you can argue the square top is closer zero L/D max more of the time …….

Simple Response:

Based on the testing conducted to date we have not encountered any increased loading with the square top from female helms.



Edited by jaydub - 31 Jan 15 at 2:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by Do Different

So, re chord < 900mm. What would be the story on the new short footed self tacking jibs vs the genoas of old? Efficiency wise that is, given that an old genoa will have a greater percentage of it's chord >900mm.<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> </span>

The jib isn't acting alone, it is effectively a slat for the main. So the total airfoil chord is the main plus jib, broken by the slot between the two. The chord of the main plus jib is well long enough even with a blade jib, at least when close hauled.

Intersting link Jaydub. I would have thought the square top would need more kicker than the current 200 rig, which would change mast bend and therefore maybe need a fuller mid body.

Edited by Peaky - 31 Jan 15 at 3:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Do Different Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 15 at 4:13pm
Thanks people. 
So much more interesting reading than all the inter class handbags.
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