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WildWood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote WildWood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New designs
    Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 10:10am

Why do boat builders always launch new boat types rather than promoting existing designs?  The dinghy market is so diluted with different types of boats that people don't seem to know what to buy.  The number of different classes available doesn't seem healthy for the racing scene.

Obviously design development is healthy and classes such as I14's, N12's Cherubs etc provide valuable advances and keep some people interested.  I wonder at the benefit that new boats that manufacturers like Laser, RS, Topper etc seem to keep launching year on year.  It seems to me that they draw a few people from other classes to them without actually bringing any new people into the sport.  This results in the diluted market and makes it harder to find good one design racing, which is without doubt better than racing on handicap.

IMHO manufacturers would do better by encouraging new people into the sport by promoting the stregths of their existing designs.  This brings new money and enthusiasm to the sport and provides better competition for those already taking part.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 10:28am

I quite agree but I suspect it's easier to sell 100 boats of a new design than it is to sell another 100 of an existing design ... and companies exist for the benefit of the shareholders ...

So if the above is the case then suppliers are giving the market what it wants.

It's the sailing public who drive this ... if they didn't lap up the new designs then the manufactures would soon stop as I am sure it's pretty expensive to bring a new boat to market.

So the question is ... why is there such an appetite for new classes in the UK sailing public when we already have many good ones?

Well in some cases a new boat offers somthing that no existing boat can but in many cases the new class seems to be going into an already crowded area ...

Perhaps we Brits like to be big fish in small ponds ...

Rick

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote combat wombat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 10:37am
There is a huge appetite for the "newer and faster" in the UK, and therefore when a new boat is launched we love it.  The fact is, there are many new boats that offer either exactly what existing boats do, but they are new and shiny and hence get bought.  The older boats residual value goes down the pan and the nationals attendance drops to nothing. 

Contrast this with the US where they have extremely well established older classes (ie Laser, FJ, 420, 505, I14).  Newer classes find it extremely hard to get a foothold (ie RS have virtually no presence in the US, Laser only sell "the Laser" and the Laser II, boats like the Musto have a look in but no impact as of yet).

My feeling is that UK sailors want the newest boat in the dinghy park.  Me, I want the cheapest and fastest 

Thats why my boats were designed in 1986 and 1967.    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 11:02am
Originally posted by combat wombat

There is a huge appetite for the "newer and faster" in the UK, and
therefore when a new boat is launched we love it.  The fact is,
there are many new boats that offer either exactly what existing boats
do, but they are new and shiny and hence get bought. 


There's more to it than that though. Newest and fastest actually doesn't sell that well in general, which is why the mass manufacturers have more or less given up on them in favour of mass market plastic boats.

I'd argue that most of the new classes have offered something different, if its only bowsprit kites.

If you look at the boats at the top of the YY Nats attendance chart about the reasonably successful competitor for an existing class is the Laser 4.7 against the Topper. There's been, for instance, no attempt to introduce a new two sail two hander to compete with the Enterprise et al.

Originally posted by combat wombat

Contrast this with the US where they have extremely well established
older classes (ie Laser, FJ, 420, 505, I14).


The US dinghy scene is far from healthy. The biggest and richest country in the world, and practically the only medals they can win are in the keelboats where there is so much less competition. They complain about how the rich Brits win the medals because they have so much money! Participation nationally in dinghies is poor, instead they do mcuh more sailing in leadmines. They have a huge college sailing scene which is pretty much all college owned boats, maintained by employees, which is a tremendous amount of money but seems to generate few top class sailors...

I'm coming to believe that an appreciable number ofpeople, if they don't have the opportunity to sail the boat they want to sail, in practice don't sail at all rather than sail something else. And also that the number of people who don't sail because there's no boat they want to sal is a lot bigger than the number of people who don't sail because there's not a fleet of 100 xxxs at their local club.

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote combat wombat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 11:37am
Originally posted by JimC



I'd argue that most of the new classes have offered something different, if its only bowsprit kites.



Maybe so, but IMHO the newer classes recently released have only introduced gimmicks to make them different from the established classes, nothing ground breaking.  Essentially just a rehash of what has been done before, remarketed.  You may not agree with me but the more new plastic fantastics are released to keep profits high just damages the existing scene. 

I never said that dinghy sailing in the US was healthy, merely that there are well established classes that people stick to.  It is true that US dinghy sailors are green with envy of the UK scene, and so they should be. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ifoxwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 11:45am

For the average sailor handicap racing also has some advantages.

 

Mr Average will probably never beat Mr National Champion in a strict one design class but with all the imperfections of handicap racing he has a chance on those days that favour his boat.

 

This keeps the large pool of average sailors interested because they can always dig up the story of how they had a great result way back when…

 

Granted for those of us that like a good race and just get more determined by being beaten by the better sailor it’s frustrating to dilute the fleets but I suspect a large proportion of sailors aren’t that serious.

 

Ian

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 11:51am

The sailing world has fallen for the Marketing mantra "New is Best",  of course those in know realise that this is not always true,  just witness the number of posts about new classes and faults with them,  whereas the strong established classes iron out design issues over time.

The big manufacturers also prefer to introduce a new class because they will have a monopoly on that design and won't be directly competing with another suppleer.  Most have at one time produced racing Optimists,  all now have given up and sell their own equelivent.   Most manufacturers also prefer to be able to control the class rules.

You may gleam something Steve Cockerill's from press release
"Some five years ago I was in the office of the director of one of the largest one design dinghy manufacturers in Europe, discussing the possibility of a dealership - where I learned of their shocking mission statement that the dinghy sailing pie was getting ever smaller and their goal was to use all their energy to take more of the sailing pie that was left than everyone else. I must admit that I did not follow his reasoning then, and I still do not.
"

I have serious concerns that we are seeing a collapse of grass roots sailing through a lack of class racing at many clubs, building a time bomb.  Those entering our sport increasingly will start in a new design, but find no class structure or fleets at their local club.  They then don't get the support and encouragements that fleets bring,  so unlikely to use their shiny new boat much,  let alone go on the circuit,  just look at the championship numbers,  bar the RS200 all traditional classes. 

Strong club fleets encourage newcommers,  the real competition is not another type of boat but another sport or activity

 

 



Edited by Simon Lovesey
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MikeBz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

I have serious concerns that we are seeing a collapse of grass roots sailing through a lack of class racing at many clubs, building a time bomb.  Those entering our sport increasingly will start in a new design, but find no class structure or fleets at their local club.  They then don't get the support and encouragements that fleets bring,  so unlikely to use their shiny new boat much,  let alone go on the circuit

I agree.  The effect of this is that fewer and fewer people experience racing - they sail around a race course on their own which becomes pretty boring pretty quickly unless it's blowing old boots or the boat they chose is genuinely extreme (foiler Moth, 12/14/18ft skiff).  End result - they aren't captivated by sailing and soon move on.

Mike

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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 2:34pm

There is a difference now in the way people use their leisure time. Compared to dinghy sailing's hayday of the 1970's people are cash rich and time poor. Whether it is true or not the image of dinghy sailors is that of white middle class pipe smoking middle aged men. That is not an aspirational image anymore and so is impossible to market, especially when you are trying to pitch it against other distractions such as Xbox, easyjet weekends abroad, golf and premiership football.

It is difficult to persuade a newcomer to sailing that sailing an Ent or GP is cool. Sailing a 49er is cool but beyond the reach of beginners. So to bring more people into the sport you have to have boats that are both "cool" and straight forward to sail. I don't see that from many traditional symmetric kite boats.

If you are seeking to stick with "established classes" then you are saying no to any development of the sport. And if that happens dinghy sailing will die.

New designs have always been thrust on the market and after the summer med season has finished and the boat show is over they are subject to the same Darwinian "sink or swim" as the others. Some survive, some don't. And club fleets are not God given, they evolve and grow and then maybe shrink and disappear. And handicap racing is better than no racing.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 06 at 3:34pm

I think there will always be a market for these new "pointless" boats, mainly because they are developed by such big players in the dinghy market, They are as a rule of thumb allot cheaper then boats like enterprises, GP14's etc.  They also are easier to sail, generally maintance free etc etc.  I dont have a problem with them because they are a cheap hassle free way to get more and more people into dinghy sailing, it helps break down the opinion that it is a rich mans sport.  I think what you tend to find is that people buy them learn to sail and would move into a more established "older" class once they know whats what.

 

I mean come on look at the sails pitch to people which arnt in the know - Big glossy brochures, fast neat looking boats.  and then you look at the enterprise etc.  It just looks old fashioned.

 

I think if you look at the older classes there attendance tables dont drop.  So it cant be harming them.

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