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m_liddell View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Aug 06 at 8:10pm

I have finally had a go with a symmetrical spinnaker after sailing only asymmetrics. I have new respect for crews and helms sailing conventionally spinnakered boats the gybing and hoisting is not that easy! As a the helm steering with your knees in waves and trying to fly it with sheet in one hand and guy in the other while the crew sorts the pole is a skill.

 

It probably didn’t help that was being talked through everything by a Bulgarian who didn’t speak any English. This coupled with having to use a windsurfing seat harness, blowing F5, knackered boat, and with lighting flashing down occasionally made for an exciting first 470 sail.



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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 06 at 8:52pm
The question is did you enjoy yourself and did you find it more rewarding than an assy?

Symmetrical kites are much more demanding but I feel much more rewarding.
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 06 at 9:53pm
Bags as well then... real baptism of fire

Very different skills are required but to do well I think they both have their moments. Where the asymmetric scores is its much easier to teach relatively inexperienced crews and get some sort of sucess. However, if you go into the gybe badly in a decent breeze it doesn't matter what type of spinnaker you have you're in for a swim!

You have to be really careful with using winsurfing harness (definately not recommended) on dinghies its very easy to seriously damage your lower back.

Edited by Garry
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redback View Drop Down
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Posts: 1502 		Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 06 at 11:36pm
Let's face it the symetrical kite does not increase the speed much unless you sail high enough that the pole has to be against the forestay.  So you might as well use an asymetric and sail a boat which is optimised for one.
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Posts: 138 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 06 at 12:03am
Originally posted by redback

Let's face it the symetrical kite does not increase the speed much unless you sail high enough that the pole has to be against the forestay.  So you might as well use an asymetric and sail a boat which is optimised for one.


Try sailing something like a GP or a Lark down a run without the spinnaker at the nationals, and you'll soon see that it increases the speed!!!
With the exception of the properly fast boats with asymmetric spinnakers (RS800, B14, Musto Skiff etc) many of the "new breed" would actually be significantly faster in the majority of conditions we see in this country if they had a proper (symmetric) spinnaker on instead, as when going low in lighter winds you wouldn't be right on the edge of it collapsing all the time as it would be possible to get it the right angle to the wind.
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 06 at 7:41am

Originally posted by redback

Let's face it the symetrical kite does not increase the speed much unless you sail high enough that the pole has to be against the forestay.  So you might as well use an asymetric and sail a boat which is optimised for one.

Then why at the Lark nationals are we not reaching off (using asymmetric tactics) on the downwind leg of the sausage?  What evidence or experience (sailing symetric spinnakers) are you basing the above comment on.
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Contender 541 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1402 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender 541 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 06 at 8:10am

Lets not forget that the one bat that is consistantly in most peoples top 10, the 505, is a symmetric and with a bloody big one at that

Believe me having learned to trapeze and use spinakers over the last 12 months sailing one, there are occasions when I look at assymetrics and wonder how easy is would be to be able to play with a big jib instead of the giant I do use.  As for speed difference, try one!!

The skill involved in gybing a symmetric and keeping the boat speed is much higher that that for assymetrics.  It is also a lot more physical.  Symmetrics and Assymetrics both have there place - besides its funny watching them both sail the same general handicap course

 

 

As pointed out below, I can't spell Symmetric!!



Edited by Contender 541
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Iain C View Drop Down
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Posts: 1113 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 06 at 8:38am

 

Originally posted by redback

Let's face it the symetrical kite does not increase the speed much unless you sail high enough that the pole has to be against the forestay.  So you might as well use an asymetric and sail a boat which is optimised for one.

Wrong diddly wrong wrong.

Check my signature, I sail both types, and a Fireball has a very small kite.  I have sailed races in the Cherub against the Fireballs much to their amusement in lighter winds as I gybe back and forth across their transoms and make exactly the same VMG.  I have also gone screaming over the top of them in breeze on a reach only to lose absolutely loads as I catch a gust and go off 30 degrees lower and totally miss the mark whilst struggling to get the kite down.  No other 3 sail boat will stay with a Fireball on a really tight 3 ragger!

With an asymmetric there really is not much to it.  Up, down, in out and perhaps a blow through and a gybe drop.  With a symmetrical add twinning lines, reaching cleats, single and double ended poles, windward and leeward hoists, chuck hoists, pitchfork hoists, Israeli gybes, pole height and Aussie drops!  That's before you've added tactics, angles, making sure everything is on the correct side for the first hoist and in fact do we or don't we fly the kite down this reach or not etc etc!

Interesting fact too that most symmetrical kite sailors can do all that and also spell "symmetrical" but most asymmetric sailors can't actually spell asymmetric!!!!

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 06 at 10:22am
Originally posted by redback

Let's face it the symetrical kite does not increase the speed much unless you sail high enough that the pole has to be against the forestay.


Err, no. That's nonsense. I'm probably one of a very few people on the forum who has sailed the exact same boat with both types of kite, and I can assure you that's not the case. In Cherubs it quite often paid to do the runs as broad reaches with the pole about 12-18 inches off the forestay with the pole kite. Hotting it up enough to actually have the pole on the forestay was much more opf a high risk option which lost more often than it paid, althought it could work like crazy if you hooked into the right gusts and shifts.

The thing that's often forgotten with these asymettric/symettric comparisons is that the sprit kites are invariably far larger because you can handle a bigger rag with the sprit. I remember a well know sail maker telling us in '89 that asymettric kites wouldn't work on a Cherub unless we increased the sail area 50%. He was wrong as it happened, but it is true to say that the average sailors can handle a kite getting on for 50% bigger...
And if you increased the klite size by 50% on a Fireball I bet it would go a hell of a lot faster on a deep reach even without the pole on the forestay... Probably little faster on a dead run though admittedly.
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tack'ho View Drop Down
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Posts: 1100 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 06 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Iain C

 

Check my signature, I sail both types, and a Fireball has a very small kite. 

Thats a kite?!? I thought fireball sailors just enjoyed waving at each other on the runs with their hankies...coooooeeee heeelooo there mavis

I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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