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Riv View Drop Down
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Posts: 353 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Riv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Laser Arms Race
    Posted: 07 Jun 18 at 11:27am
I like Lasers because they are the only boat I can run around on to amuse myself on windless days. Nice flat deck, good non slip. Lot of laughs. Splash!
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 18 at 10:18am
Mark - can we get the thread re-named from "Laser Arms Race" to "Buggy Finger Chase"?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 18 at 10:14am
Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by turnturtle

LPE are simply creating a product that the after market appears to want....  given the willingness to accept replica sails at a lot of clubs, and given the usually b**locks that ensues as a result of it, it looks like LPE are simply providing a 'middle ground' option for those who are committed to the concept of what the laser is all about, without necessarily putting their hands as deep into their pocket as necessary.

Well yes, but the idea that the price is lower "because we don't have to pay the royalties to ILCA" is a bare faced lie.

and I would expect no less from LPE....   Dead  

edit: the same clowns who went to market advertising red ones as faster, and let's not even get started on the abhorrent way their sister / parent / complex shell company structures have treated parents and infants when faced with severed fingers!!!   

I like new boats, but I'd never buy a new Laser from them on principle.  


Edited by turnturtle - 06 Jun 18 at 10:17am
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 18 at 10:09am
Originally posted by turnturtle

LPE are simply creating a product that the after market appears to want....  given the willingness to accept replica sails at a lot of clubs, and given the usually b**locks that ensues as a result of it, it looks like LPE are simply providing a 'middle ground' option for those who are committed to the concept of what the laser is all about, without necessarily putting their hands as deep into their pocket as necessary.

Well yes, but the idea that the price is lower "because we don't have to pay the royalties to ILCA" is a bare faced lie.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by bustinben

 
Ideally you'd sail the boat totally flat and with the rig set up so that weather helm is minimal.  Given that the rudder is so small anyway, if you made the blade more vertical you'd reduce the feedback coming through it even more which would make it harder for the sailor to feel when the boat isn't in balance.

So the boat might feel nicer when it's being sailed badly, but it would also be harder to sail it better because you'd lose feedback from the rudder.

I think with that in mind it would probably give the better sailors an advantage over the not so good ones, which would be the opposite to what's intended.

I think we'd get used to the reduced feedback very quickly, just as you do in Tasars, FDs, Int Canoes etc. I tend to think the Laser is a much better boat than many people think (just about every supposed disadvantage is also an advantage in other ways or to other people) but the rudder design was probably the result of the fact that the creators had grown up sailing older classes.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by RS400atC



On a windy day, an old laser is still up there in the accessible fun stakes though.

on a gutless one too - if there are others to race against... which there usually are, somewhere nearby anyway.

edit: great post btw!




Edited by turnturtle - 05 Jun 18 at 3:01pm
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by bustinben

....

The bend characteristics of the composite top section are as good as identical to the aluminium one up to the point where it deforms.  Force required for a given amount of deflection is basically the same (according to my boat park/weight hanging measurements).  

You don't need to use more kicker to bend the mast the same amount, but what does change is that the force from the same "amount" of kicker decreases over time as the aluminium section takes on a permanent bend.  

Given that we've always been pulling the kicker on to the point where you can hardly get under the boom and the mainsheet blocks are scraping on the deck I don't think much is really going to change with the amount of kicker used.
I think it's not directly pulling on the kicker that permanently bends top sections.
It's having a lot of kicker on, then getting hit by a gust.
Something has to give, and in your case it's now the lower section.
The lower section is a chunky old thing, we shouldn't really be breaking those.
If we fix that then the boom starts to look weak.

This is the problem with piecemeal re-design or 'backwards compatibility at all costs'.
Designing a whole new rig from scratch would probably have allowed something far better.
But I suspect the main thing is, the people who break Laser masts on regular basis see it as an acceptable cost. The only good thing about the Laser is the number of them to race against. Every part of the boat is basically worse than virtually every me-too alternative.
Re-design the rig and you're still left with a compromised cockpit, self bailer that mostly sucks in the American sense, centreboat that flops about in the slot, rudder stock that corrodes, etc etc.
In 1969 it was a visionary design, but so was the Austin Maxi...

On a windy day, an old laser is still up there in the accessible fun stakes though.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 1:45pm
LPE are simply creating a product that the after market appears to want....  given the willingness to accept replica sails at a lot of clubs, and given the usually b**locks that ensues as a result of it, it looks like LPE are simply providing a 'middle ground' option for those who are committed to the concept of what the laser is all about, without necessarily putting their hands as deep into their pocket as necessary.
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Fatboi

"Laser Standard MKII training sail. Same cut, no class button, lighter cloth, big savings.

There are three Laser sails, only ONE of which is currently legal for all competitions.
1. Class legal - Legal for all National & International competitions.
2. Class Compliant - Not Class legal, made from the same cloth and to the same specification as the class legal version but without ILCA button so are not legal for any competitions at present.
3. Training Sail - Not Class legal, made from lighter cloth to keep the cost down, again without the class legal button."



I guess option 2 cuts some royalties out as well as the costs of measuring the sail. Only thing I can think of to reduce the price... 


The royalties paid to ILCA for the button per sail are miniscule... something in the scale of a fiver. LPE are spreading complete b**locks about it so that they don't look so bad.
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Posts: 288 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 18 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by bustinben

Originally posted by Rupert

Sounds like a quality improvement giving longer life to a part before degradation, as with the new sail. Surely that should be applauded by all those who previously complained about how things didn't last, rather than whinging about how it has become an arms race?

I think it is exactly like that for national/international level sailors - I've not had to buy another top section for over a year now and I'd usually get through 2-3 in that time so we're nearly at the break even point.  And the carbon one still looks like it's got at least twice that life left in it.

The only bad things said about them are for the first batch/attempt which all cracked within a couple of weeks at the bottom plug, but that's all been resolved (eventually... like getting blood from a stone as you might expect from LPE).   

We now need the same thing to happen for the radial bottom section, because they typically last less than a single windy day before bending, and they're more expensive.



The point is, the alloy top mast is not really fit for purpose if it bends permanently (becoming out of class) in 'normal use'.
So the composite one is a 'good thing'.
The problem is that the stronger top section will enable people to bend and break the lower section more readily. So that will need an upgrade.
Which will enable people to use more kicker in more wind, which will have a predictable effect on the sail and inevitably shorten the life of the boom.

The bend characteristics of the composite top section are as good as identical to the aluminium one up to the point where it deforms.  Force required for a given amount of deflection is basically the same (according to my boat park/weight hanging measurements).  

You don't need to use more kicker to bend the mast the same amount, but what does change is that the force from the same "amount" of kicker decreases over time as the aluminium section takes on a permanent bend.  

Given that we've always been pulling the kicker on to the point where you can hardly get under the boom and the mainsheet blocks are scraping on the deck I don't think much is really going to change with the amount of kicker used.
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