Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Personal Handicap |
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damp_freddie ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 03 Jun 07 at 9:13pm |
Unlike sailing, golf is not a racing sport. The best personal handicap is to say, last year I got a run of thirteenths and this I'm up at about number 10. Cup for best improver. Like I say, golfers can do what the heck they want but pers'handicaps should be kept out of sailing IMHO
Why reward bad sailing and why encourage people not to train?
If people have a boat which is too physically or psychically demanding on their time then get out and find something which suits your style. That's the beauty of sailing over golf or most any sport - you can always go buy a type of boat to suit you and become competitive no matter your age, size, challenged mobility, fitness, and budget You can usually get into a boat that suits, enjoy it, get up the learning curve and measure your improvement in average places, be that OD or PY. Whacky algorythms not required thank you! |
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The mainstay of of most sailing clubs are the members who are interested in paying their fees, going to the social functions and having a sunday sail 5 or 6 times a year and good for them too. Clubs can't exist without them. Nothing wrong with running the odd race on personal handicaps to give them a chance of some silverware at the Laying up supper. These members have probably been members for 10, 15, 20 yrs. have done all the duties helping run races, spent a fortune behind the bar and have the mostly realistic view that at 50+ they ain't going to get much better anyway....They deserve the odd race where they stand a chance of winning a Cup and I'm sure the top sailors at most clubs are more than happy that these people get some of the applause. |
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giraffe ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 10 May 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 148 |
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i think the anti personal handicap group are missing the point. Personal ratings are required whether it be a fleet of different boats or One Design. There is no enjoyment going down to your sailing club and beating up people you are better than week after week. There is no reason to improve your boat or yourself. Set up a rating system so that you need to beat people by a larger amount each week and that motivates everyone. There is a pecking order in most fleets as there is a wide variety of skill levels and given that I have 20+ years experience of high level competition how am I going to get a decent race at my local club with 20 active sailors unless something is done to alter the basis of competition. Yes I could travel to open meetings, but my family do not want that. Yes I could find a club with a better standard of competition, but that would not be so close to home. Yes I could give up and play golf with someone good and with a handicap so that we can both enjoy some competition. gold/silver/bronze with 20 boats? there is hardly enough for a fleet without breaking it down anymore. No. Quite frankly my loft is full of hideous pieces of glassware and i dont want any more. I do not want or need to win when it comes to club sailing. I just want a fun competition which means that I can sail every weekend. I want the others to enjoy it as much as I do and want to feel that they want to come back each week for more. Personal handicapping works. The system needs to be good. Those who are improving their handicap need to be recognised, as do those who have the hardest handicaps. it is not about rewarding bad performance or not training. it is about increasing participation. anyone who wins a handicap race be it portsmouth based or personal based should appreciate that their handicap was an important factor. |
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andymck ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
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Thanks Giraffe, thats exactly what we are trying to do.
Andy |
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Andy Mck
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Well said Giraffe!
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MainlySwimming ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 28 Nov 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 65 |
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Totally agree...just wish the 'experts' at our club all had the same view.
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blaze720 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Sep 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1635 |
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Nothing more to say - it encourages all to work harder. If you 'need' a decent pot get out a bit more and benefit from having to work much harder at club level.
Blaze 720 |
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ChrisJ ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 337 |
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At Burghfield (just off J12 on the M4) we use a personal handicap pursuit race on a Wednesday evening. It is incredibly popular (are there any other clubs that have an AVERAGE mid-week turnout of 60 boats?). The details of how the handicaps are calculated are all at: http://www.burghfieldsailing.org/index.php?module=pagemaster &PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=14&MMN_position= 15:15 Basically, the pursuit race has starts every 30 seconds. Every boat has a base start time (based on PY number). If you finish in the top half of the race, you have seconds added onto your time, while those in the bottom half each race have seconds taken off. The actual number of seconds is calculated based on how many boats are racing and your actual position. The seconds are rounded up to give a starting number: with most boats somewhere between -3 and + 3 minutes. The actual number of seconds per boat is remembered for the next week, so that your total / personal start time is continually varied during the season: but over time more and more boats finish closer and closer together! There are two prizes for the series: 1 for the normal best 7 out of 18 races (which is incredibly hard to win: as the better you do the more you get penalised the next time). and 1 for who can get the highest personal handicap number. Does it work? Apart from the Oppies starting in nice clear wind - and the evening wind dropping for all the other boats! Or the RS400's who only get a 30 minute race, when others are getting up to 75 mins. Or the difficulties of overtaking 20 boats on a short run. Or the better you do the harder it is the next time.... Apart from that, its the 75 boats racing at the same time, followed by a meal and drink in the club, that shows it must work!
Cheers, Chris RS400 1254 RS-Vareo 294 |
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ChrisJ ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 337 |
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BUT we don't use personal handicaps for the normal Sunday fleet and handicap racing. This is where "the best man wins", but the personal handicap races do allow a lot of: "I can beat him on a Sunday, I should be able to beat him on a Wednesday" But when you are starting 3 or 4 minutes (and 20 boats!) behind him, it makes it very hard. "Very hard" means you have to try harder, and try different tactics, and make sure you make no mistakes, and get the inside line on all the buoys, but still be to windward on all the legs, without getting luffed out of existence etc. It gives different racing - and the variety seems to work well and attracts many different people. |
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andymck ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
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Like at your club the idea is not to replace standard handicap racing, but to use it for one of the series, parallel to the standard handicaps. The initial handicaps will be calculated from the sailwave results from standard handicap racing, with small additional modifications for any boat that has placed in any handicap series, we would expect these guys to be contesting the standard series anyway, and hope to spread the prizes. Handicaps would then be modified in a similar way to your series, with varying deductions of handicap for being in first three, and a slightly slower gain if you place in the bottom half. Initial handicap would be made from an average from a minimum of three standard handicap races. Precise numbers not yet decided for penalisations etc, still at discussion stage.
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Andy Mck
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