Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Personal Handicap |
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![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 04 Jun 07 at 11:41am |
The mainstay of of most sailing clubs are the members who are interested in paying their fees, going to the social functions and having a sunday sail 5 or 6 times a year and good for them too. Clubs can't exist without them. Nothing wrong with running the odd race on personal handicaps to give them a chance of some silverware at the Laying up supper. These members have probably been members for 10, 15, 20 yrs. have done all the duties helping run races, spent a fortune behind the bar and have the mostly realistic view that at 50+ they ain't going to get much better anyway....They deserve the odd race where they stand a chance of winning a Cup and I'm sure the top sailors at most clubs are more than happy that these people get some of the applause. |
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damp_freddie ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 20 Oct 05 Location: Aruba Online Status: Offline Posts: 339 |
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Unlike sailing, golf is not a racing sport. The best personal handicap is to say, last year I got a run of thirteenths and this I'm up at about number 10. Cup for best improver. Like I say, golfers can do what the heck they want but pers'handicaps should be kept out of sailing IMHO
Why reward bad sailing and why encourage people not to train?
If people have a boat which is too physically or psychically demanding on their time then get out and find something which suits your style. That's the beauty of sailing over golf or most any sport - you can always go buy a type of boat to suit you and become competitive no matter your age, size, challenged mobility, fitness, and budget You can usually get into a boat that suits, enjoy it, get up the learning curve and measure your improvement in average places, be that OD or PY. Whacky algorythms not required thank you! |
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Scooby_simon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
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I think the Dart 18 system ran thus:
You go up the handicap by the full amount of your performance at an open meeting, but you only go down the handicap by 25% of your (bad) performance.
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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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andymck ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
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If you have a system, as in golf that your handicap is reduced by good performances quicker than it gets better by bad ones this should even out, as a single race does not a series make. There are bandits watever system is used, and we all put up with it, but perhaps a system where the alleged bandits get pegged back a bit every time they win is better than the status quo, unless you are that bandit. Also if you have a standard handcap series run on a parallel basis, the bandits wont necessarily have the incentive to turn in bad performances. Anyway our proposal has been passed around our club, and we may see if it works in the near future. Andy
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Andy Mck
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bustinben ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
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Yes, that is true, but the situation that I'm talking about is if you sail very poorly for a couple of weeks you can then win more easily. It would be great if there was a system that provided what you talk about and ONLY that. So if you know there's something important coming up you aren't motivated to sail well because it will make winning that something harder! I'm not saying that people will necessarily do it at a concious level (some may), but the fundamental motivation for racing has been altered.
Hence my view that gold silver and bronze fleets are a better idea. Once you win one, you move up. No moving down again! Edited by bustinben |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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> The major problem with personal handicaps is that the
> worse you sail the easier it becomes to win. That is > fundamentally wrong. You're right - to say that is fundamentally wrong. It doesn't work like that... You win if you have an event where you sail well above your usual standard, and you win if you're continuously improving. |
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bustinben ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 15 Oct 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 288 |
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I think a gold, silver and bronze fleet is a better idea - that way you don't reward poor sailing whilst giving the new guys something they can win.
The major problem with personal handicaps is that the worse you sail the easier it becomes to win. That is fundamentally wrong. Edited by bustinben |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Good post, Chris.
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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It's one thing to give people advice on how to get better. It's entirely another thing for them to find the time to put it into effect. One thing that concerns me when I do coaching is that for all the info I can give people, the vast majority is tinkering with the edges to some extent because it needs time on the water to really improve. Now, if N, M, A, S and C (to use examples from two of the classes I've tried to help in my amateurish fashion) cut all their other responsibilities to get more training in, what will happen? Assuming they won't cut out the family and work time; N will give up being unpaid secretary of a club of about 250 members...... M will stop giving up every 2nd Sunday to training disabled sailors....... A will stop being unpaid treasurer...... S will stop running the biggest regatta in his other class..... C (already on the podium in Youth and Skiff worlds) will stop seeing his new wife...... Now, these are all things we do not WANT to happen. These are people who are already doing vital things, mostly for our sport. Surely it is better to have a system where we effectively say "we know you don't have lots of time to train, so here's a system that rewards you when you do sail as well as you can in the circumstacnes" rather than "bad luck, either train or be a loser". Other sports have grades, golf handicaps etc....arbitrary handicapping is just sailing's way of doing what grade comps do for other sports. Your average 46 year old weekend social footy player doesn't go up against the Olympic football squad or Chelsea on the weekend, why should we expect weekend sailors to go up against former or semi pros or amateur experts? Personally I think that grades, when the fleet allows, are superior in some ways but it's rare that we can do that. PS totally agreed with what Ian said about the need for the top guys to get involved. One of my classes has gone from 5 to 27 locally in about 2 years largely due to that spirit. Edited by Chris 249 |
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Ian S ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 18 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 68 |
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The value of using personal handicaps depends upon the culture you have within your club. IF the good sailors are prepared to get involved and help newbies then racing will thrive and every one is a winner - bigger turnouts, new members improve and competition increases. IF the good guys stay in their own little clique then there is no incentive for new racers to stick with it as they'll never beat bloggs and bloggs won't want them there as they don't know what they are doing, a bit catch 22 really. Turn outs drop and whilst club membership may be healthy, examination of the key indicator, actual numbers racing, will present a different picture. There are some very simple checks you can do.. look at the number of new members who joined each year and see how many are still there in 3 years time. At our club we take on average 30 memberships in learn to sail each year.. over 10 years that's 300 people, yet club memebrship is no where near that and on average the retention of a new member is less than 10% year on year, ie if 30 join this year, only 3 of those will renew next year, 2 of them will renew the following year and the year after it's down to one. Seeing as we get an extra 30 members the following year though, the retention and drop out largely goes unnoticed as overall membership levels are generally static or show a slight increase, until you look at the on the water activity closely and realise how few are sailing and that the majority sailing are hardcore club members who have been there for some time. It can be hard to get people to recognise this but without the right culture at the top, trying to change things at the bottom by using PH's will at best be a stop gap measure. Get it right at the top and a most improved personal handicap over a series or special event is an excellent boost to the ego as it rewards someone who may have finished 20th but has really excelled themselves as they would normally have finished 40th.. and lets face it it's nice to get a bit of recognition from time to time :-) |
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