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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 May 07 at 3:24pm
Yep, I remember Ostrobogolous well. I had to write a large suite of custom Excel Macros to deal with it when we used it at our club.

As far as the top third of the fleet is concerned you can sum it up as "Don't bother to turn up for the first quarter of the series, because the results mean virtually nothing, but make damn sure you turn up and do well in the last two races."


Edited by JimC
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damp_freddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 May 07 at 8:25pm

why reward bad sailing?

Best improver and points for turning up, racing regularily etc are nice things as an alternative, but all the effort and hot air of personal handicap schemes  could be better put into encouraging one design racing and giving people real advice on how to get better.

Probably one of the differences between dinghies and yachts is you are more likely to get a ride on a good yacht while it's being sailed to perfection than a dinghy of course, but videos and lectures from sail makers etc are all a better use of human energy than personal handicaps.

 

best left to golfers and other forms of brain-stem death

 

 ( I have had the annoyance of seeing poorly sailed keel boats 'becoming competitive' under two systems while good teams don't bother- also virtual 'personal' handicaps on schemes like CYCA for one-offs/otherwise dog-boats doing the sport no favours)



Edited by damp_freddie
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Ian S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 07 at 11:36am

The value of using personal handicaps depends upon the culture you have within your club.  IF the good sailors are prepared to get involved and help newbies then racing will thrive and every one is a winner - bigger turnouts, new members improve and competition increases.

IF the good guys stay in their own little clique then there is no incentive for new racers to stick with it as they'll never beat bloggs and bloggs won't want them there as they don't know what they are doing, a bit catch 22 really.  Turn outs drop and whilst club membership may be healthy, examination of the key indicator, actual numbers racing, will present a different picture.

There are some very simple checks you can do.. look at the number of new members who joined each year and see how many are still there in 3 years time.  At our club we take on average 30 memberships in learn to sail each year.. over 10 years that's 300 people, yet club memebrship is no where near that and on average the retention of a new member is less than 10% year on year, ie if 30 join this year, only 3 of those will renew next year, 2 of them will renew the following year and the year after it's down to one.

Seeing as we get an extra 30 members the following year though, the retention and drop out largely goes unnoticed as overall membership levels are generally static or show a slight increase, until you look at the on the water activity closely and realise how few are sailing and that the majority sailing are hardcore club members who have been there for some time.

It can be hard to get people to recognise this but without the right culture at the top, trying to change things at the bottom by using PH's will at best be a stop gap measure.

Get it right at the top and a most improved personal handicap over a series or special event is an excellent boost to the ego as it rewards someone who may have finished 20th but has really excelled themselves as they would normally have finished 40th.. and lets face it it's nice to get a bit of recognition from time to time :-)

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 07 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by damp_freddie

why reward bad sailing?


Best improver and points for turning up, racing regularily etc are nice
things as an alternative, but all the effort and hot air of personal handicap
schemes  could be better put into encouraging one design racing and
giving people real advice on how to get better.


Probably one of the differences between dinghies and yachts is you are
more likely to get a ride on a good yacht while it's being sailed to
perfection than a dinghy of course, but videos and lectures from sail
makers etc are all a better use of human energy than personal handicaps.


 


best left to golfers and other forms of brain-stem death


 


 ( I have had the annoyance of seeing poorly sailed keel boats
'becoming competitive' under two systems while good teams don't
bother- also virtual 'personal' handicaps on schemes like CYCA for one-
offs/otherwise dog-boats doing the sport no favours)



It's one thing to give people advice on how to get better. It's entirely
another thing for them to find the time to put it into effect. One thing that
concerns me when I do coaching is that for all the info I can give people,
the vast majority is tinkering with the edges to some extent because it
needs time on the water to really improve.

Now, if N, M, A, S and C (to use examples from two of the classes I've
tried to help in my amateurish fashion) cut all their other responsibilities
to get more training in, what will happen? Assuming they won't cut out
the family and work time;

N will give up being unpaid secretary of a club of about 250 members......
M will stop giving up every 2nd Sunday to training disabled sailors.......
A will stop being unpaid treasurer......
S will stop running the biggest regatta in his other class.....
C (already on the podium in Youth and Skiff worlds) will stop seeing his
new wife......

Now, these are all things we do not WANT to happen. These are people
who are already doing vital things, mostly for our sport.

Surely it is better to have a system where we effectively say "we know you
don't have lots of time to train, so here's a system that rewards you when
you do sail as well as you can in the circumstacnes" rather than "bad luck,
either train or be a loser".

Other sports have grades, golf handicaps etc....arbitrary handicapping is
just sailing's way of doing what grade comps do for other sports. Your
average 46 year old weekend social footy player doesn't go up against the
Olympic football squad or Chelsea on the weekend, why should we expect
weekend sailors to go up against former or semi pros or amateur
experts?

Personally I think that grades, when the fleet allows, are superior in some
ways but it's rare that we can do that.

PS totally agreed with what Ian said about the need for the top guys to get
involved. One of my classes has gone from 5 to 27 locally in about 2
years largely due to that spirit.

Edited by Chris 249
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 07 at 1:58pm
Good post, Chris.
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 07 at 11:47pm

I think a gold, silver and bronze fleet is a better idea -  that way you don't reward poor sailing whilst giving the new guys something they can win.

 

The major problem with personal handicaps is that the worse you sail the easier it becomes to win.  That is fundamentally wrong.



Edited by bustinben
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 07 at 9:38am
> The major problem with personal handicaps is that the
> worse you sail the easier it becomes to win. That is
> fundamentally wrong.

You're right - to say that is fundamentally wrong. It doesn't work like that... You win if you have an event where you sail well above your usual standard, and you win if you're continuously improving.

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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 07 at 10:37am

Yes, that is true, but the situation that I'm talking about is if you sail very poorly for a couple of weeks you can then win more easily.  It would be great if there was a system that provided what you talk about and ONLY that.

So if you know there's something important coming up you aren't motivated to sail well because it will make winning that something harder!

I'm not saying that people will necessarily do it at a concious level (some may), but the fundamental motivation for racing has been altered.

 

Hence my view that gold silver and bronze fleets are a better idea.  Once you win one, you move up.  No moving down again!



Edited by bustinben
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 07 at 6:43pm

If you have a system, as in golf that your handicap is reduced by good performances quicker than it gets better by bad ones this should even out, as a single race does not a series make. There are bandits watever system is used, and we all put up with it, but perhaps a system where the alleged bandits get pegged back a bit every time they win is better than the status quo, unless you are that bandit. Also if you have a standard handcap series run on a parallel basis, the bandits wont necessarily have the incentive to turn in bad performances.

Anyway our proposal has been passed around our club, and we may see if it works in the near future.

Andy

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 07 at 7:47pm

I think the Dart 18 system ran thus:

 

You go up the handicap by the full amount of your performance at an open meeting, but you only go down the handicap by 25% of your (bad) performance.

 

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