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andymck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Personal Handicap
    Posted: 25 May 07 at 9:09pm

After another drubbing by the handicap bandits the other day the subject of personal handicaps was brought up, suprisingly by the chief bandit.

There do seem to be a few clubs that run personal handicap series, does anyone have any knowledge of  how the handicaps tend to be set, and are modified, as we felt that it would be a good experiment for one of our series.

Cheers

Andy



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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 9:31pm

At Wilsonian we use personal handicaps for pursuit races, because they can make the racing and finishes much tighter than they would otherwise be (once you're passed by a faster boat in a pursuit, you can see all too clearly that you're not going to win).

The handicaps were initially guessed at by looking at the finishing order of boats in normal series, and allotting personal corrections accordingly, assuming there is a 10% difference between the fastest and slowest sailor; with hindsight, I'd make that 20% difference, incredible as it sounds. Thereafter, the results of pursuit races are fed back into the system to tweak the personal handicaps by rough and ready rule of thumb/calculation.

We don't use personal handicaps for normal massed start racing because they don't make the racing any better on the water, and lead to a set of results that everyone regards as even more arbitrary than the official PY's. There's not much incentive to improve if the only consequence will be a stiffer handicap, and people might sandbag prior to important events, making the whole thing a pantomime.

The real answer is for slow sailors to learn and improve if they want to win, but in practice few bother to even get a book out of the library...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 9:43pm
They are the backbone of golf so why not sailing?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 9:53pm

Originally posted by Guest#260

They are the backbone of golf so why not sailing?

 

Two completly different sports and impossible to compair, each class of dinghy is completely different, where as in golf there limition in kit is much smaller, secondly there are thousands of golf handicap bandits out there, i wouldnt want to encourage this in sailing.

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andymck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 10:12pm

The plan was to use all the handicap results as the basis for the personal number, this should iron out the non triers. Do clubs vary the numbers on a race to race basis, or just at the start of the series?

The other option was to award two prizes for the same series, hence giving potentially different winners.

The trouble being that the local conditions do give a couple of classes a big advantage, as on our sheltered small lake light boats with large sail areas have a distinct speed benefit which is not reflected in their PY.

One of the comments was that a well working personal handicap system would give a better idea of the base handicaps that individual classes should have locally.

 

Andy

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

Originally posted by Guest#260

They are the backbone of golf so why not sailing?


 


Two completly different sports and impossible to compair, each class of dinghy is completely different,


Its widely done in Australia.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Calum_Reid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 10:20pm
Hmm just done a fair bit of research into all things personal handicap and feel it has its advantages and disadvantages. I think if you are going to do it anyway then do it alongside standard py racing.

I have alot more too say on this but dont have the time to fully write it up at the moment will try to do something tomrrow
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Post Options Post Options   Quote giraffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 10:22pm

when we lived in aus the approach to this was really simple.

races lasted approx 90 mins to an hour.

it was one design racing

handicaps ranged from 0 mins (adjust your elapsed time by 0) to 20 mins (adjust by 20 mins)

after each weekend the handicap result was calculated.

winner had 3 mins deducted, 2nd had 2 mins deducted, 3rd had 1 minute deducted.  if the scratch boat won then everyone was given 3 minutes.

it was an excellent way of sharing out the prizes and was a real challenge for the leading boats to see how far they could win by.

should be done here.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 11:06pm

That makes sense for class racing, where the true situaton is all too evident from positions on the water.

But for handicap racing, I wonder if it isn't adjusted PY's for classes that would suit you, Andymck. With many fewer changes involved, it would be a lot simpler to administer, eg. using Giraffe's system for classes instead of individuals.

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andymck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote andymck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 07 at 11:47pm

The issue for classes is that an adjustment of over 30 points is not going to make a difference, (this is known not to be a skill issue) apart from annoying some members of the problem fleets who are the mid level sailors. These guys have spent a lot of money to get an appropriate boat for themselves and the water, and the differential even within the class has been caculated at over 60 points on the PY scale. Most of these guys came in the top half of their nationals fleet last year.

So where some of the fleet are happy to accept a 30 point change, this in fact will make no difference. We are not intending to change all of the handicap racing to personal handicap, as we are aware of the difficulties as mentioned above.

What we are trying to do is make some of the handicap racing more competative for everyone, and therefore boost attendances, as there is a sometimes a general why bother feeling when it comes to the handicap series.

The suggestion of personal handicapping has come from some members of that fleet, as they also see the problem.

What w want to know, before we put a suggestion forward to our racing committee, is how this is run elsewhere, as the idea is to give everyone a chance to win, including the Phantoms.

Andy Mck
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