Alto Dinghy

I don't get it...why on why do 'us brits' insist on 'fiddling' with designs and thus reducing the fleetsizes for all classes. Just because boat  x isn't quite perfect then someone invents boat y which is basically the same but slightly different.. thus the number of people sailing the classes goes down and so does the level of competition. Look at virtually any other strong sailing nation and they have half the number of 'active classes' we have, and tend to have stronger fleets, until you get geographic constrainst such as US/Aus.

If you want a single-trap, asym boat with a wing-wang pole, then buy a 4000. 2-2.5K and you have a boat that will win you the nats. theres good competitive racing at some of the best venues in Europe & the UK - e.g. garda, bandol, sardinia, abersoch, rock, hayling, felixstowe, grafham. Plus it's weight equalised so that 60 kg helms and 100 kilo helms race level...plus you have a really friendly welcoming class that are keen to see newcomers come into the fleet and give it a whirl..

While we are waiting for Mike Arnold/Old Arn to reply to this thread, I wanted to post my own two penny worth here.  I own an old 505, and an old Javelin..I  am also a friend of Mike Arnold's and very much admire the Alto.

I would like to answer a few questions which keep cropping up in this thread and pose one or two more.

1. Should people tweak, modify, or radically alter sucessful designs when the steam is going out of  the original? 

Of course they should. In the natural world it's called evolution. In farming and bloodstock  it's called breeding and in  International 14's and other restricted classes it's called 'the latest thing'.

The 505 is a successful thoroughbred which far outsold its contemporary competitors including the Flying Dutchman, the Osprey, the Hornet and the Javelin. However sales of new boats have slowed considerably in recent years and have been outstripped by a plethora of  asymmetric  classes which are arguably all derived or significantly influenced by the  Penultimate International 14's from the early 1990's. The Laser 4000, the RS400, and the ISO, are all arguably reduced-horsepower stretched-waterline 14s, with a touch of Merlin Rocket here and there. (OK OK I know the Aussies started it all, and that UK Cherubs had asymmetrics in the '70's.)   Yet Penultimate 14's are as suitable for short steep seas as good polo ponies are for the Grand National.i.e. NOT A LOT!  In contrast, with its gentle bows and longish waterline, the 505 is and always was an excellent sea boat. While the 505's almost unique  bowler hat hull shape, makes planing to windward a long remembered dream, designers like Morrison (RS400, Laser 4000) l cut their teeth on 14's and Merlin's whose 14 foot length restriction determined the almost vertical bows. How else could they maximise waterline length and therefore velocity? The 505 on the other hand was developed by John Westell from his Coronet design which was 18 foot long. . The only similar hull that preceed the Coronet that I am aware of , was an unsuccessful International 14 called Thunderbolt No 635. However the bow of Thunderbolt was the usual vertical wall of a 14 not the elegant graceful entry of the 505.  In other words, if you are going to develop from an existing  hull design, (and I contend  all the recent classes  ARE derivative). then  the 505 is a very sensible  place to start. [By the way what you can't do in the Alto in its current layout is run from wire to wire between tacks. For that you need a 49er, a Swift Solo, or to influence Mike Arnold.

Is the Alto good for boat design  in general and the 505 class in particular?
Of course it is. With a  505 hull and a modern rig, what better opportunity is there  to compare the old with the new? It's got to be good for sailing. Mike sailed against a number of good 505s at Alton Water last winter. Imagine a mixed fleet of 10 Altos and 10 Five Oh's?  And all in a boat the can go over a wave and not stop dead in a seaway. How exiting is that from a design point of view AND as a spectacle.

2. Is the Alto's swinging pole (' 120 degree-articulated spinnaker system) a leap forward or just a copy?

In my understanding the Alto's spinnaker system is a significant leap forward making all Mike Arnold's work in the last few years admirable for this alone. To say it's derived from the RS 400 is like saying the helicopter was copied from the boomerang.  However let me turn the question back on the critics. Can your  wing-wang pole, or a tweaked pole  be turned  60 degrees either side of the forestay, thus allowing you to run straight downwind if you want to? If not then the Alto is way  ahead of you. We all know what gybe-tacking downwind against a strong tide is like. In an Alto you have the full flexiblity that a racing team needs to deal effectively with the opposition. I'm going to have a Fully Swinging Pole  myself soon. Admitedly my sailing is quiter than most, but imagine having a boat so flexible and well behaved that you can fly a kite single handed from the wire one day, race two handed the next, and picnic with small sails and children on the third.Is that perfect or not?

 

The Alto in my opinion isn't anything revolutionary, it may suit some sailors better and cater a niche, although at this present moment in time given the chance I would consider sailing a 505 aswell as the 49er but finances don't allow. The Alto would not get a looking from my perspective as I like the 505 the way it is, and even if the Alto was quicker I'd still opt for the 505. I don't think the 505 needs a self tacker on it and from sailing a skiff without a self tacker to one which has one, the only real benefit it has is that it means we nail gybes and tacks first times in windy conditions where we were getting it right 99% of the time anyway, works well on the 49er as it means you are less likely to stall the boat head to wind in tacks and be punished by slight backing during gybes. The swinging pole thing is far from revolutionary and has been around on 400s and 4000s, the angle of swing is just a technical detail, the concept is not new. The fact that the boat gains great virtue from the amount of swing on the pole indicates that a symmetric would be much more suitable. I've sailed boats like the 400, 4000, 5000, Iso, etc in reasonable swell and not found them difficult at all and drawing a comparison directly to Penultimate 14s ability to handle chop is unfair. It all begs the question, why not sail a RS 400 or the original 505 in the first place?

Pierre. Good luck with the alternative Osprey. that would be great to see.

Dennis/49er: I will concede a little on your "unfair" point but not an inch, or a degree on the pole swinging issue. ITo me i's not about originality but about whether you can go on a dead run with the kite up, if you choose, but still get all the benefits of an asymmetric.  I'll leave OldArn/Mike Arnold to answer your final question if he wishes. After all the Alto is his idea.

JimC: Jim I don't follow your car analogies at all I'm afraid..The 505 is still in production at Rondar over 50 years after its original debut. The D type hasn't been built since Stirling Moss had hair. I'd be interested to hear about your ' at least 2 hull design revolutions though.'

The sailing community is very diverse various needs some looking for speed, good tactical racing, easy to use, very technical,....  The alto is not intending to compete with a 49er what intends to do is be fast, provide affordable comfortable sailing that is accesable to those who would have chosen 100m running if they wanted to go sprinting every time they tack.

Personaly i would prefer a 49er but then i am only 21 and fit.  However the cost means i will have to stick to windsurfing for the time been.

I think this is what the alto is about, it won't be the next olympic class but maybe it will be a boat that a large proportion of sailors can affordable sail in the comfort of a conventional dinghy with some the modern benfits that self taking jibs and asymmetrics provide.