py failing

Originally posted by Lukepiewalker It seems a bit unfair to call Jim useless... But i'm with him. If the data supported it the change would be made. But for most classes where dramatic changes might be expected (usually smaller in numbers), it probably takes longer for the difference to be quantified as there are less of them around.

 

Luke at no point have i called Jim useless ! Please read my post again !  I just expressed that i didnt agree with him this time.  I find jim points of view on technical issues very interesting and dont doubt his intellegance and knowlege BUT on this occasion i think he is wrong hence my post!  So please retract that Slap dash, childish, spiking remark

Originally posted by Merlinboy Originally posted by Lukepiewalker It seems a bit unfair to call Jim useless... Luke at no point have i called Jim useless ! Please read my post again !

In actual fact merlin boy, it's you who should read your own post again.  Dont worry you didnt call him useless, however a correction of your miss spelling of unless would more than likely solve the predicament. 

I think the VLM is literally the length of the luff on the Laser (and most other boats). I'm guessing VLJ is Vertical Luff Jib, as opposed to the actual luff length. Presumably CB is area below the hull as well Scooby?

Originally posted by CurlyBen I think the VLM is literally the length of the luff on the Laser (and most other boats). I'm guessing VLJ is Vertical Luff Jib, as opposed to the actual luff length. Presumably CB is area below the hull as well Scooby?

 

yes to all and for this exercise luff length will do.

Edited by Scooby_simon

We've had this debate before and  I doubt we (or the RYA) will ever come up with a system that pleases everyone.

That said, it's very important that we have confidence in the PY system to produce fair results and it's clear that confidence is lacking.

Why? Well it's very noticable that the same boats are mentioned time after time - and from clubs spread throughout the country. Is this just sour grapes or does it indicate that some classes have (on average) better yardsticks than most others? I'd suggest that the system favours certain types of boat and disadvantages others.

I can't agree with the argument that some classes do well because the best sailors are in that class. It shouldn't make any difference. The PY number is a Yardstick - based on performance. So even if the best 50 helms in the country all happened to be in one class their performance should result in a much lower yardstick for that class. But it doesn't. Why?

Well, imagine if you ran the PY system at one 'mega' club with lots of different classes, Of course, boats sailed at this mystical club would all sail in the same variety of wind, tide, and wave conditions as each other so the system should work, and eventually the yardstick system should mean that over a long series giving a large variety of conditions,  every class should have an equal chance.  So at that club, let's say that amongst all the others, there are fleets of say 10Fireflys, 10Merlins, 10Lasers and 10Fireballs - each having equally good sailors but a range of boats from brand new to 20 years old - which classes would win and fill the top ten of our fictional long series? I suggest we all know it's the Merlin and Fireball. But why?  I think it's because the top Fireballs and Merlins will benefit from having a higher 'average' yardstick whereas the top Firfly and Laser will suffer because their fleets 'average' will be closer to their own performance as the difference between a new and old boat isn't as significant, I mean that the 'spread' between the front and back of the Lasers and Fireflys is likely to be much less than the 'spread' in the Merlins and Fireballs where the difference in boats is more significant. That's not their fault, it's the system that 'averages' classes and takes no account of the relatively big differences in speed between the front / middle / back of  each fleet.

In other words, classes that are virtually static in terms of development suffer while classes that have made signiicant changes can (and usually do) benefit.

So, wouldn't a fairer 'handicap'  include some factor to take into account the likely 'spread' of relative boat.speed within a class?

I have other concerns - one is transparency - I know a process / formula is available, but why can't the RYA publish other important details. This would include details of the returns - and minutes of their meeting- (as I understand it they 'tinker' with the results). Another is new or radically altered classes - so no change to the I14 when they introduced Tfoil rudders, no official reccomended PY for the RS500, Int moths have a new h'cap for foilers based on what - doubt they do much club racing but Vortex asymmetric still not there despite a good number of returns, etc etc