py failing

I dont agree with what people are saying here, the main poblem with the py system is that each boat performs better in each set of conditions and water types, for instance a Thames a-rater is crap on the sea- FACT but in land in a drift it will kill anything (on handciap) Cherubs are another example in drifting weather they struggle but in a bit of breeze they are off!  Same can be said for merlins and ents on a river in the light stuff an ok ent sailor would kill an ok merlin sailor because the ent is a quicker boat to tack etc etc.  The PY system has some major flaws but lets face it unless we go to personal handicapping then its as good as you are going to get.  This debate comes up time and time again, but unfortunatley we cant predict the weather so best go for the boat thats a good all rounder or go for something else and prove you are a good sailor

P.S. i am a former merlin and phantom sailor

Unfortunatly class events dont tend to be run over the winter, and class sailing does not take place at club level due to lower turn outs.

I think there will always be difficulties with boats that are disimilar, such as trapeze boats on open water vs inland type boats. I sail on a small inland lake, where only inland type boats sail, and these are the waters that the diffences seem to be greatest in the classes mentioned, and accross wind conditions. I just would like to know since returns are made, why the changes are so small.

The performance of each sailor at our club, against the fleet average is published openly on the web, which unfortunatly given the massive performance differences against handicap, makes the situation clearer than the mud, handicap systems usually are. I dont know of any other club that does this. I know that some clubs have further changed handicaps for the more modern boats, beyond the RYA recomendations, and they still do well.

This is expected for developement classes from time to time, but for a one design fleet, which has allowed a huge leap in performance, should the handicap not reflect this? I suspect if they had introduced it as a new class, the number would not have been so generous.

As far as I can see the RYA is failing those clubs that do make returns on this issue. We all sail because we enjoy it, thats why we turn out every week even in winter. It is fun, and even low performance boats in handicap fleets are as well. You soon get to know what a good performance is, never mind who gets the chocolates! I have never been at a club with as many top sailors, who regularly race at their home club (performance in club champs confims this) before. I just wish that the people who do the calculations from  returns could spot that when a national champion from one class, is doing very well when he gets within 4 mins, on current numbers in a 45 minute race,  of a similar standard sailor from another class.

Cheers

AndyMck

A discussion on handicaps will always get a good response!

I run a personal handicap series once a year at our club.  I work out the PY a boat would need to equal the winner in each race, then average it over the number of races sailed.  The top 4 or 5 guys are within about 20 or 30 of their RYA handicap, the rest are between 200 and 500!  So my view is that skill, rather than the boat is the biggest difference.

Having said that we sail in restricted waters, so no trapeze boat will stand a chance, and a light guy in a small boat will always do well in light winds.  Isn't that obvious, and as said earlier, we only do it for fun!  I do agree though that changing from the RYA hadicap, which we're encouraged to do by the RYA to suit our waters, is very unwelcome and can cause a lot of difficulties, so for the most part it's best to leave it alone and admit it's unfair.