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I14 Worlds Stitch-up

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IanW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote IanW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: I14 Worlds Stitch-up
    Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 12:16pm
Chris chill don't tar us all with the same brush I am British and personally having read posts here and on SA I think that the Jury probably got it about right.  In fact they possibly should have gone a bit further but in a class where protest are not a common ocurance they probably decided that a rule 69 situation was best left well alone.

Dont worry though we will level it up at some cricket match in the summmer


Edited by IanW
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CJ.. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CJ.. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 12:41pm

Bruce,

I don't think it's relevant that the head of the jury was an Aussie.  Unless we have overwhelming evidence to the contrary, we have to put our trust in the integrity of jurys!

Chris249,

Calm down....let's not bring nationalities into this.  I think what I'm struggling with is seeing facts like that on a protest form!  Normally the facts relate to the incident on the water, but I guess this is a different situation since we're talking about fair sailing.

I'm not sure if these facts (and they are facts, that can't be disputed) should have been taken into account.  How often would they have normally had dinner together during the week?  If they hadn't both been sponsored by RMW would they have "got away with it"?

To me the situation of series points was far from straight forward!  If they really wanted to screw the Aussies they would have done it pre-start.  In fact it looks like the Aussie pair needed no help screwing up their start.

Unless you were there and saw what happened it's difficult to comment, however the fact that Richardson/Barker had some grounds for their actions (they had a chance to beat the Aussies themselves) makes the jury's decision at least questionable!  I wouldn't suggest that the jury cheated, but often jurys make errors!

Anyway, what's done is done.  It's a shame for something like this to hang over the event and question the validity of the results, but I guess that was always going to happen once the protests were lodged!



Edited by CJ..
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Matt Jackson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Matt Jackson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Chris 249


So Bruce, do you think the jury was making those facts up, and Barker chose not to mention it? Did the jury just sit down and think "hmmm, how can we make our decision sound good". Do you think there was no such dinner and the jury just invented it? Do you think there was no such discussion, and that the jury just invented the talk of points, and Barker didn't mention that no such dinner took place? Do you think the jury made up the fact that the two boats with RMW on them were sponsored by the same company?

You ask "What relevance does this have, unless the aim of the jury was to incinuate that the brit crews cheated?"

Oh c'mon....there's no "incinuation" that the Brit crew cheated...it's a lot more than insinuation, it's a fact as found by a protest committee. Of course it's more an an insinuation. What did you want them to do, after they found those to be the facts...say "we think the brits cheated but we won't say why"?

If it was a pair of French boats, sponsored by say Hobie Cat France, and they had a meeting over win the previous day, would you say "oh no, they couldn't have cheated". Well, the Poms have repeatedly claimed in print such things about other nationalities....now the boot is on the other foot suddenly there's a rush to change the way people adduce motive from facts.

Yes, the head of the jury was an Aussie. The jury also included one or more Kiwis (kiwi/Aussie sporting relations are notoriously prickly...saying a Kiwi voted for the Aussie is like saying a Frog sided with a pom because the countries are neighbours) and people from other countries. One Aussie, about 6 jury members....do the maths.

This is interesting....you have motive and opportunity for the Poms to have sailed the way they did, yet you reject that they could have cheated.

You have NO motive for the rest of the jury to have come to the decision they did, yet you believe that imply that they gave a decision in bad faith and then concocted reasons for it. Nice one.

You claim that the jury are at fault for ascribing motives to the Poms, yet you go on to ascribe motives to the jury's actions in listing the Pom's meeting before the last race.

What relevance does your post have, unless its aim is to insinuate that the jury cheated in coming to its decision?


Can we keep phrases like 'the poms' and 'Frogs' (meaning the entire British and French nations) out of these fora? It hardly helps anyones arguments over impartiality to use such phrases. I'm proud to British but I'm not proud of everything my countrymen do!

I have known the majority of a pub filled with Kiwis support Australia when they played England - I guess pricklyness is a relative thing where England is involved.

Also having dinner together does not imply a conspiracy - just a relationship which is already known about because I expect they train together. The last Worlds I went to I shared acommodation with a fellow Sailing Club member but this wouldn't imply we were team racing.

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 1:09pm
Yah, I should chill out. Apologies all round. Forums are where I get my assertiveness training.....

I could comment on some more of he above, but I've raved more than enough already!

And yes, I DO hope you guys get the Ashes if our team keeps on behaving in an unsporting manner.




Edited by Chris 249
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Dave S View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dave S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by CJ..

To me the situation of series points was far from straight forward!  If they really wanted to screw the Aussies they would have done it pre-start.  In fact it looks like the Aussie pair needed no help screwing up their start.

From where I was sitting (about a boat length away) the Aussies had a cracking start, in fact I half expected them to be OCS. I think we were the only boat in a position to stitch them up at that stage (which we didn't!) What happened on the first beat was that most of the fleet went left (which we all thought was the correct call) but going right paid in trumps. Most of the front-runners (including Lindsay, Flossie and at least one of the RMW boats) were totally down the pan at the first mark, whereas a reasonable proportion of the boats who were further up (including us) had got there by being forced to tack out and go right after messing up the start. The front runners showed us just how good they are by sailing back up through the fleet in conditions where everyone tends to go exactly the same speed and it's notoriously hard to get past other boats...

Dave

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CJ.. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by Dave S

Originally posted by CJ..

To me the situation of series points was far from straight forward!  If they really wanted to screw the Aussies they would have done it pre-start.  In fact it looks like the Aussie pair needed no help screwing up their start.

From where I was sitting (about a boat length away) the Aussies had a cracking start, in fact I half expected them to be OCS. I think we were the only boat in a position to stitch them up at that stage (which we didn't!) What happened on the first beat was that most of the fleet went left (which we all thought was the correct call) but going right paid in trumps. Most of the front-runners (including Lindsay, Flossie and at least one of the RMW boats) were totally down the pan at the first mark, whereas a reasonable proportion of the boats who were further up (including us) had got there by being forced to tack out and go right after messing up the start. The front runners showed us just how good they are by sailing back up through the fleet in conditions where everyone tends to go exactly the same speed and it's notoriously hard to get past other boats...

Dave

I sit corrected.

My remark was more of a tongue-in-cheek dig..... :)

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505 CW View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 505 CW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 4:53pm
Well done Ian....!

I guess that everyone who wasn't there probably is grasping at straws (I wasn't, and am as unclear as everyone else). The Jury seem to have taken a "ruffle as few feathers" approach, while giving what they deemed to be the right result (that's what I think that they are there to do).
I am just delighted that an International regatta has come down to a decision taken during a last night "tactics session". My personal experience of these sessions (I seem to half-remember such a session during the 49er Worlds at Bandol in 1998) is that:

A dinner occurred;
at this dinner most of the Brits consumed extreme amounts of beverage;
a certain Mr Barker - resident of GBR - seemed to sail better after aforementioned session...!

Charlie 505.
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Brian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 5:00pm
there are t-shirts available in nz.

"i support the All Blacks, and anyone playing australia"

but hey, come one the umm.... oceanians or something!

conspiracies eh? imagine if it was italians now, Sweden 2-2 Denmark
anyone?

Edited by Brian
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Bruce Starbuck View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Starbuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 8:42pm

Originally posted by Chris 249

So Bruce, do you think the jury was making those facts up, and Barker chose not to mention it?

No.

Originally posted by Chris 249

Do you think there was no such dinner and the jury just invented it?

No.

Originally posted by Chris 249

Do you think there was no such discussion, and that the jury just invented the talk of points, and Barker didn't mention that no such dinner took place?

No.

Originally posted by Chris 249

Do you think the jury made up the fact that the two boats with RMW on them were sponsored by the same company?

No.

Originally posted by Chris 249

This is interesting....you have motive and opportunity for the Poms to have sailed the way they did, yet you reject that they could have cheated.

No I don't. I think they probably did.


Originally posted by Chris 249

You have NO motive for the rest of the jury to have come to the decision they did, yet you believe that they gave a decision in bad faith and then concocted reasons for it. Nice one.

No I don't. Your mind-reading abilities are first-class by the way!

Originally posted by Chris 249

You claim that the jury are at fault for ascribing motives to the Poms, ...

Yes I did.

Originally posted by Chris 249

...yet you go on to ascribe motives to the jury's actions in listing the Pom's meeting before the last race.

No I don't! 

Originally posted by Chris 249

What relevance does your post have, unless its aim is to insinuate that the jury cheated in coming to its decision?

I was questioning the inclusion of facts such as where someone had dinner the previous evening on a protest finding, that's all. It's highly unusual.

The relevance of making the comparison with the Aussie jury chairman was mainly to try and wind up Chris249. Tee hee!

P.S. Sorry about spelling "insinuate" wrongly.


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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb 05 at 12:59am
Well, it worked!

I hadn't been able to sail much for a week or so (old windsurfing wounds) but I finally got out last night for a delightful race and I'm much less aggro now
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