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I14 Worlds Stitch-up

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Much FWB View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Much FWB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: I14 Worlds Stitch-up
    Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:26am
Court of Arbitration for sport: Athletes can request clarification on a
decision by umpires/referees when they feel that the rules by which
decisions are made are not in accordance with legal guidlines and
principles.

It's the only course of appeal available from an IJ decision.
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:45am

Originally posted by Much FWB

Court of Arbitration for sport: Athletes can request clarification on a decision by umpires/referees when they feel that the rules by which decisions are made are not in accordance with legal guidlines and
principles. It's the only course of appeal available from an IJ decision.

Only in the Olympics I think. Normally there is no appeal from an IJ decision. That is the whole point of an event paying the not inconsiderable sums involved in having one.

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 12:24pm

Re "7.GBR 1516 stated their covering tactics on the last leg of race seven was
to force AUS631 “5 or 6 positions down” on the basis of the finishing
times this represented almost an additional four minutes......Does this not represent a case of the Jury using the benefit of hindsight in
order to penalise a decision made in the heat of the moment where no
part 2 rules were broken? Can they do that? I can't find any precedent for
it."

Sorry, but where is the hindsight??? The jury seem to have been using the times to illustrate how far-fetched they felt it was for 1516's actions to really be trying to push AUS 631 back so far. Even out there on the course at the time, surely it would have been obvious to 1516 that they would have had almost no chance of pushing 631 back all the way to 26th, given the way the fleet had obviously stretched out.
 
"They've also added the fact that 1516 could beat the Aussies not only by
finishing higher than third, but also by pushing them down to 26th. They
were 18th when they started covering, but just happened to have gone to
the favoured side of the course so both boats ended up actually gaining......Here's another point, if the Aussies were slowed down by three minutes
up the final beat, how did they pull up from 18th to 14th?"

Hang on, Lindsay had been picking the shifts brilliantly (according to the world I 14 president, a Seppo) for the regatta. Why was his decision to go left something that "just happened"????

Surely your point is rather hurt by the fact that the 1516 crew never tried to say they hadn't slowed 631 down. "If the Aussies were slowed down by three minutes up the final beat, how did they pull up from 18th to 14th" was never in any doubt....Barker admitted they slowed 631 down and obviously the observers agreed (as in the Daily Sail report). It's pretty easy to be slowed down by 3 minutes and still gain.....if you had hit a side that was advantaged by 5 minutes or so. I've seen something similar happen in teams racing, when a boat that's getting slammed and held back still hits the right side and gets past other boats.

The other point remains....was it just a coincidence that as soon as 631 had been pushed one place away from the world title, 1516 released the cover? That's one hell of a coincidence, that the time that 1516 finally gives up their forlorn attempt to drive 631 back by 8 or 9 minutes was synchronised to the time that 631 lost the world title to a boat owned by the same team.




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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 12:31pm
The crucial thing has to be why they stopped covering when they did. As soon as I read this finding

"GBR 1516 ceased its covering tactics when GBR 1513 was in a position to win the series."

I stopped having any doubgts the IJ was right.

To accept the Brit story (as posted on the Daily Sail) you've got to believe that just by complete coincidence they just happened to decide that they weren't going to be able to sail the Australians down to 26th and give up the covering exercise exactly at the right time to help out their buddies. If they'd stopped covering one place sooner, so that the other Brit boat didn't win that would have put them in the clear, similarly if they'd kept on every last second all the way to the finish and taken the Australians some more places down that might have given them some credibility too. But I don't swallow that as a coincidence, and I don't believe any reasonable PC would. Sure by the time the parties get in the room they may have persuaded themselves their motivation was different, that's a very common phenomenum!

To talk about winning it in the room only is ridiculous, I'm sure there are very many Championshiops where PC decisions have affected the results. If not we wouldn't need them.

As it is though there is no doubt in my mind at all that there was an attempted "stitch up" to rob the rightful champions , and the IJ foiled it. Well done the IJ!



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 12:48pm

Had they been team racing to allow them to finish just 14th would have been pretty stupid as one or more of the top 13 could have been disqualifed for any number of reasons giving them the win. So how could they have know at that point it was a winning result for the other RMW boat?

My take on them releasing the cover actually supports the position that they were not team racing but fighting for their own result which had obviosly failed as they approached the finish.

Rick

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 12:56pm

Originally posted by JimC

The crucial thing has to be why they stopped covering when they did. As soon as I read this finding

"GBR 1516 ceased its covering tactics when GBR 1513 was in a position to win the series."

I stopped having any doubgts the IJ was right.

How could anyone, IJ included, know exactly when GBR1513 was in a position to win? The IJ's protest report is, understandably, written in a way to support the conclusion they came to. GBR1516 could well have broken off covering once it was clear that the left had paid and putting the AUS boat into 26th place was a lost cause.

I think the IJ did the right thing, but on the balance of probabilities and the need to stamp on possible team racing tactics, not on 100% proven fact.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Much FWB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by JimC

The crucial thing has to be why
they stopped covering when they did. As soon as I read this finding "GBR
1516 ceased its covering tactics when GBR 1513 was in a position to win
the series." I stopped having any doubgts the IJ was right.


How could anyone, IJ included, know exactly when GBR1513 was in a
position to win? The IJ's protest report is, understandably, written in a way
to support the conclusion they came to. GBR1516 could well have broken
off covering once it was clear that the left had paid and putting the AUS
boat into 26th place was a lost cause.


I think the IJ did the right thing, but on the balance of probabilities and
the need to stamp on possible team racing tactics, not on 100% proven
fact.


 



With you on that Stefan.

On the Court of Arbitration For Sport. You can appeal to it from any event
where the right of appeal is denied by either Rule 70 or with the presence
of an IJ, but, you can only appeal the process by which a decision was
made, not the decision itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargethesailor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Guest#260

Personally I think this is a pretty big decision of the IJ to reach ...

Is it? They are a protest committee, not a court of law. Protest decisions are made on the balance of probabilities all the time. "Reasonable doubt" is a defence in law but not in front of a protest committee. It is only a sailboat race albeit, in this case, quite an important one. 

However Rule 2 binds the PC/IJ somewhat more than the normal standard of proof with the phrase "A boat may only be penalized under this rule if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated".  When I read the facts found I see some fairly hefty jumps of logic, which have been previously discussed.  They do not,to me, add up to "clearly established".

I would suggest that there was an imperative to give redress in the interests of a "fair" result.  As already commented PCs/IJs write facts found to support their conclusions.  To do so required a Rule 2 DNE. 

One can not know the reaction of Steve Morrison at this remove, but in all honesty the result is probably fair - from what I read it seems the Aussies would have closed the gap enough to win.  If Ian Barker and Co genuinely did not team race then they can feel extremely aggrieved at what is a signifcant slur.  If they did then fair enough - but my own feeling is that the IJ's facts found don't sufficiently support their conclusion in the context of standards of proof for Rule 2, and the other issues which go with that for the protestee.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 7:10pm

It is an interesting point Sarge makes on the standard of proof for rule 2.

Protest documents can now be found at http://www.takapunaboating.org.nz/Business/productsbusiness/ productBoard.htm

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 05 at 8:00am
It also occurs it me that its by no means impossible that 1516 originally intended to try and sail AUS down to 26th. But when that had obviously failed there was yet the chance to just hold them back a bit longer and help your mate out. The temptation to do that would be very great. And that's a rule 2 breach...

It needn't have been a deliberate ploy from the start, just a last minute "Oh well we can at least". And bearing in mind we are talking about decent people in a friendly class someting spur of the moment like that seems far more likely than a grand conspiracy.
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