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    Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 9:44am

Seems this thread has degenerated into a Aussie v Brit slanging match ...

All I was saying was that this was an unacceptabe outcome to a big event.

If you look at the points at;

http://www.takapunaboating.org.nz/SMLogo/SW190205.htm

Had Richardson/Barker puched them down to 24th they would have beaten them and may have taken 2nd. To do this they pushed them away from the fleet to the expected unfavoured side of the course, this turned out to be the favoured side and resulted in them both taking places of the fleet.

As far as I can see from what I have read both sides of the story were believeable - which means that the championship was decided by 3 blokes in a room.

Anyone who has spent any serious time with IJ's in cases like this will know it's 50:50 on the outcome ...

Not a great way to settle a championships.

Rick

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:11am

> had Richardson/Barker puched them down to 24th they would have beaten them and may have taken 2nd. To do



Have you read the protest hearing document?

According to the facts found they stopped the cover well short of the line and exactly at the point to give the other UK boat the result. Had they been trying to take the Aussies down to 24th why would they have stopped the cover then? If you were doing that you'd keep on just as long as you can, hope to catch the other boat in a foul and so on. The Aussies might have capsized on a hasty tack or anything to take them down. The fact that they gave up the match racing at exactly the place required for their team mates to win makes it pretty straightforward. And there were excellent third party witnesses that was the case. With those facts found I don't see what else the IJ could do. Once you read the protest hearing documentation as opposed to the 3rd party reports its really quite straightforward - much more so than I was expecting when I read them.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:22am

JimC - I have read all the reports and documents, but I wasn't there so I'll never know. As I said only the sailors will ever know ...

Rick

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:27am

Originally posted by JimC

Once you read the protest hearing documentation as opposed to the 3rd party reports its really quite straightforward - much more so than I was expecting when I read them.

If you read Barker's comments on The Daily Sail, you might be less sure. I've summarised them on the other thread here. On balance though, I still support the IJ. Team racing tactics would ruin fleet racing and need to be stamped on. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Much FWB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:51am
This is from the "revised" version of the protest transcript.

7.GBR 1516 stated their covering tactics on the last leg of race seven was
to force AUS631 “5 or 6 positions down” on the basis of the finishing
times this represented almost an additional four minutes.

Does this not represent a case of the Jury using the benefit of hindsight in
order to penalise a decision made in the heat of the moment where no
part 2 rules were broken? Can they do that? I can't find any precedent for
it.

They've also added the fact that 1516 could beat the Aussies not only by
finishing higher than third, but also by pushing them down to 26th. They
were 18th when they started covering, but just happened to have gone to
the favoured side of the course so both boats ended up actually gaining.

Here's another point, if the Aussies were slowed down by three minutes
up the final beat, how did they pull up from 18th to 14th?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:01am

Agreed team racing has no place in fleet racing.

But what was this - a boat trying to protect a place overall or someone helping a mate?

Impossible for anyone to tell except Richardson and Barker.

Personally I think this is a pretty big decision of the IJ to reach ...

Rick

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:11am

Originally posted by Much FWB

Here's another point, if the Aussies were slowed down by three minutes up the final beat, how did they pull up from 18th to 14th?

Because they were pushed to what everyone expected to be the "wrong" side of a very long beat, which turned out to the be "right" one. Barker's argument is that if the "wrong" side had been unfavoured as most of the fleet expected, he might indeed have taken the Aussies down to 26th or worse.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:15am

Originally posted by Guest#260

Personally I think this is a pretty big decision of the IJ to reach ...

Is it? They are a protest committee, not a court of law. Protest decisions are made on the balance of probabilities all the time. "Reasonable doubt" is a defence in law but not in front of a protest committee. It is only a sailboat race albeit, in this case, quite an important one. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Much FWB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:17am
Indeed so - The jury then decided that with hindsight and based on the
finishing times of the relevant boats that tactic wasn't going to work.

They based a decision on information that was and can only have been
available after the act and not at the critical decision times of the sailors.
It was information that the sailors didn't have at the time and I think its a
very dangerous thing for the Jury to do.

I can envisage a CAS case could be brought out of this one for a breach of
due process, (it has happened for a lot less in the past)

Unless of course, Al and Ian accept it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:21am

Originally posted by Much FWB

II can envisage a CAS case could be brought out of this one for a breach of due process, (it has happened for a lot less in the past)
.

Lost me there. What is CAS and what "due process" do you think the IJ breached?

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