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I14 Worlds Stitch-up |
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Stefan Lloyd 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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 Topic: I14 Worlds Stitch-upPosted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:15am |
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Is it? They are a protest committee, not a court of law. Protest decisions are made on the balance of probabilities all the time. "Reasonable doubt" is a defence in law but not in front of a protest committee. It is only a sailboat race albeit, in this case, quite an important one. |
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Stefan Lloyd
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Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:11am |
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Because they were pushed to what everyone expected to be the "wrong" side of a very long beat, which turned out to the be "right" one. Barker's argument is that if the "wrong" side had been unfavoured as most of the fleet expected, he might indeed have taken the Aussies down to 26th or worse. |
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 11:01am |
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Agreed team racing has no place in fleet racing. But what was this - a boat trying to protect a place overall or someone helping a mate? Impossible for anyone to tell except Richardson and Barker. Personally I think this is a pretty big decision of the IJ to reach ... Rick
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Much FWB
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Joined: 20 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 7 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:51am |
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This is from the "revised" version of the protest transcript.
7.GBR 1516 stated their covering tactics on the last leg of race seven was to force AUS631 “5 or 6 positions down” on the basis of the finishing times this represented almost an additional four minutes. Does this not represent a case of the Jury using the benefit of hindsight in order to penalise a decision made in the heat of the moment where no part 2 rules were broken? Can they do that? I can't find any precedent for it. They've also added the fact that 1516 could beat the Aussies not only by finishing higher than third, but also by pushing them down to 26th. They were 18th when they started covering, but just happened to have gone to the favoured side of the course so both boats ended up actually gaining. Here's another point, if the Aussies were slowed down by three minutes up the final beat, how did they pull up from 18th to 14th? |
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more
Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:27am |
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If you read Barker's comments on The Daily Sail, you might be less sure. I've summarised them on the other thread here. On balance though, I still support the IJ. Team racing tactics would ruin fleet racing and need to be stamped on. |
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:22am |
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JimC - I have read all the reports and documents, but I wasn't there so I'll never know. As I said only the sailors will ever know ... Rick
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 10:11am |
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> had Richardson/Barker puched them down to 24th they would have beaten them and may have taken 2nd. To do Have you read the protest hearing document? According to the facts found they stopped the cover well short of the line and exactly at the point to give the other UK boat the result. Had they been trying to take the Aussies down to 24th why would they have stopped the cover then? If you were doing that you'd keep on just as long as you can, hope to catch the other boat in a foul and so on. The Aussies might have capsized on a hasty tack or anything to take them down. The fact that they gave up the match racing at exactly the place required for their team mates to win makes it pretty straightforward. And there were excellent third party witnesses that was the case. With those facts found I don't see what else the IJ could do. Once you read the protest hearing documentation as opposed to the 3rd party reports its really quite straightforward - much more so than I was expecting when I read them. Edited by JimC |
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 9:44am |
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Seems this thread has degenerated into a Aussie v Brit slanging match ... All I was saying was that this was an unacceptabe outcome to a big event. If you look at the points at; http://www.takapunaboating.org.nz/SMLogo/SW190205.htm Had Richardson/Barker puched them down to 24th they would have beaten them and may have taken 2nd. To do this they pushed them away from the fleet to the expected unfavoured side of the course, this turned out to be the favoured side and resulted in them both taking places of the fleet. As far as I can see from what I have read both sides of the story were believeable - which means that the championship was decided by 3 blokes in a room. Anyone who has spent any serious time with IJ's in cases like this will know it's 50:50 on the outcome ... Not a great way to settle a championships. Rick
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Mark Nicholson
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Joined: 21 Feb 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 9:13am |
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I was wondering the same thing, how could Irwin be given 10th? Thanks to the wonders of text messaging, my suspicions were confirmed. The report didn't explain very well, but it seems that Irwin had climbed to 10th on the final beat but alleged that Richardson baulked him, causing him to drop to 14th. The supposition being that Richardson was helping his RMW mate out. I'm sure there'll be two sides to this story, but either way the jury upheld Lindsay's claim. I'll doubtless find out more from Barker in the pub! Both Lindsay and Stevie sailed a brilliant series, bringing it down to the wire, so either would have been worthy winners. Mad Jack
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lasercrazee
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Joined: 23 Mar 04 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 3 |
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Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 3:32am |
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Great. We finally have an IJ that will stand up and do the right thing. I've been blatantly team raced out of a championship by a competitor's team mates so that he could win. Hard to get off the start line when you have a boat directly in front of you, two above and one below, none of whom give a hoot if they will be OCS or thrown out. Even if you protest the boats which are covering you they will get thrown out but their team mate is in the clear (air). Everybody understands that one on one in a deciding race i.e. Ainslie/Scheidt, Foerster/Rogers is OK but I for one am strongly against team racing in fleets. |
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