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    Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 4:52pm

I think you guys are focusing on the wrong end of the stick; whilst a Laser may have had some changes they are minor compared to the developments with traditional one design classes yet the PYs are still pegged the same.

Perhaps this tells us why its hard to win on PY in a Laser or that all that development has yeilded little improvement.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mongoose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 3:47pm

Originally posted by Guest#260

But that dosn't make them faster; if you had mothballed a brand new laser from 1980 and broke it out the packet at this years nationals I am sure it would be on a par with a new boat of today ...

I'd suggest that the changes to the control systems would give the 2009 Laser the edge.  The ease of adjustment means you are more likely to have the rig set up correctly more of the time, and lose less boatspeed when actually making an adjustment.  Therefore if everything else was equal, a Laser with the new style controls should be fractionally quicker round the course i.e. the class has developed.  However, it would seem it's not a significant enough change to actually affect the PY 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

...I am sure it would be on a par with a new boat of today ...

My source implied not. Certainly things like better resins and fibres are going to make a difference to stiffness and thus speed, as are things like better fabricated hull joins and the like... not to mention more consistent mast rake. But who knows...

Its an interesting thought that although I'm not a great believer in the significance of boat speed, I suspect the one time its really going to make a difference is if you've got 50 boats lined up on a start line on starboard tack, all with exactly the same optimum pointing angle, trim etc. It seems to me that in that circumstance even tiny differences in performance will be magnified as the first people to get a nose in front get progressively clearer wind, and the folks who get a tad behind get progressively worse...

I wouldn't be suprised if boat speed makes more difference in those circumstances than in a class where there are wide variations with some boats clearing air by going low and fast, some high and so on... I'm certainly quite sure boat speed is a lot less significant in a handicap or pursuit race where there are far greater opportunities for clear air (unless of course you are one of a dozen Lasers!).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 12:47pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Guest#260

The point is Rupert we have an excellent baseline which hasn't changed which is the Laser

Interestingly I've seen a post on SA recently from someone involved in building Lasers which laimed they have improved over the years - improved resins in the hull, more consistent construction, better QA were amongst the things mentioned...

But that dosn't make them faster; if you had mothballed a brand new laser from 1980 and broke it out the packet at this years nationals I am sure it would be on a par with a new boat of today ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:53am
.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Guest#260

The point is Rupert we have an excellent baseline which hasn't changed which is the Laser

Interestingly I've seen a post on SA recently from someone involved in building Lasers which laimed they have improved over the years - improved resins in the hull, more consistent construction, better QA were amongst the things mentioned...

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:12am
The point is Rupert we have an excellent baseline which hasn't changed which is the Laser
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 10:09am

While the handicaps are based on time, the actual decisions on what boat has which handicap is based on how they do in results terms against other boats. Take a simple example. Boat A sails against boat B regularly, and it is found that on average boat A beats boat B by 2 minutes per hour. A handicap system is set up so that boat B can stand as much chance of winning as boat B. Boat A then adds a spinnaker, and now can beat boat B by 3 minutes an hour. Boat B thinks "I'll have one of them" and gains the minute back. The speed relationship between the boats hasn't changed enough for the handicap to change. If Boat B had decided not to add a spinnaker, then Boat A or boat B would have needed a handicap change to make things even.

Stiffer, lighter hulls on all boats would have the same effect, and if on enough of the boats around, chances are just as likely that the boats which haven't changed would be perceved as going slower, and so be given a better handicap. I guess the only boats to suffer in this are the old ones of classes which have allowed changes in hull construction to make them go faster, so that even with new sails they can't keep up.



Edited by Rupert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:40am

Rupert; you seem to be saying that all handicaps are basedlined against each other such that if everyone went 10% faster the PYs would be unchaged; I don't think that is the case and that all PYs would come down 10%.

But that isn't the case because the Laser hasn't got any faster (the XD controls don't do much for the speed just ease of use) so it seems to me that Jim's point is valid, i.e. one-design development has not achieved much ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 09 at 9:35am
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by tmoore

The GP14 handicap has stayed the same even though the new FRP ones are clearly faster!!! Same goes for solo i would guess.

So what does that tell you?

It tells me that 1) there are still plenty of old GP's handicap racing, 2) many classes are developing better hulls so reletive handicaps are staying similar and 3) get a new GP if you want to win on handicap. Or a new Phantom, Solo, Streaker, Enterprise - infact almost anything new will be faster than class average. Therefore to win, spend some money. Or get good at sailing.

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