Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Classic Boat PY's |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Actually there are five classes whose PY hasn't changed in thirty years, allowing for the changes in the relative numbers. They are Wayfarer, Enterprise, Solo, Heron, Mirror. The GP14 and Laser are close behind, having changed by 1 point the year after the current 4 figure numbers came in. Firefly data for some reason is wildly varianble - the returns fom clubs varies more than most development classes! |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Back in the old days, the firefly stayed at 100 and all other classes moved around it. I'm not sure why the system changed, but presumebly the RYA had their reasons. The numbers were revamped (the firefly went to 124) because otherwise the Tornado handicap was getting so low it was silly, and at that point the fixed datum was scrapped.
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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I thought the returns to the YA included a "Crew Skill Factor" which was supposed to account for sailing ability?
Not that I really know how you assess CSF precisely....I don't know whether I'm a better sailor in Radials than I am in Windsurfers or Mistrals or Tasars or Int Canoes etc etc, so I can't work out how other people could work out well sailed a Tasar is v a Radial v an IC v a Mistrat etc etc. Chris Nicholson says he's often surprised by the difficulty of working out (from their past performance and first impressions) how well a new team will go in 49ers; the boat just suits some people more than others of similar backgrounds. So you can't even say "X is a 29er champ and Y was 5th in 29ers, therefore X must be sailing a 49er better than Y is sailing an RS 800"....if you get my drift, can't be bothered to explain it better. |
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Bruce Starbuck ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 124 |
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[QUOTE=Garry]Bruce, what basis would you base your handicap system on and how would you demonstrate it was fair? QUOTE] It would be based on the current returns system PLUS the opinions of half a dozen selected dinghy sailors sitting in a smokey room with a big pot of coffee on the table. The next year's sailing would demonstrate if it was fair or not. The current returns-based system is a good start, but it has severe limitations with regard to the ability of the sailors. What we have is not a representation of the relative performances of boats, but of boats and the sailors who sail them. As you can't quantify sailor ability, then I'm forced to think that human opinion should be used to try and take it out of the equation. Normally I'm the last person to advocate more committees, but I can't see any other way to start moving handicaps around a bit more energetically. I think also that the system needs to revolve around one fixed boat in the centre of the performance spectrum. The laser would be the logical choice because it is universally available and popular, isn't going to die out and has virtually no development. All the other classes should have a rating which is worked out relative to that. |
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Garry ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 536 |
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It wouldn't be difficult to take the results from the Grafham GP and a few similar events, calculate a set of new handicaps and compare these to the published list. I suspect they would be very similar.
Bruce, what basis would you base your handicap system on and how would you demonstrate it was fair? Look at the discrepencies that occured with the IOR, CHS and whatever the latest measurement based offshore flavour is. A statistical approach is the soundest way to determine the handicap, its the experiment to collect the data that is crucial. Do we want the RYA to spend sevral thousands (of our money) running a different experiment? Given the stability of the PNs in the system for most classes suggests that the system isn't performing that badly. There is a problem with the development classes but local handicaps could address that, I agree the RYA could do more to promote adjusting handicaps. If you used a system based on boat design I see two problems: Firstly designs will try to maximise their handicaps and may lead to some oddities and secondly a boat that gets a poor relative handicap will die as a class. I would prefer to see more effort going into adjusting class handicaps at a local level for local conditions. |
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Garry
Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
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Bruce Starbuck ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 124 |
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Because the biggest variable we are dealing with, the ability of the sailors, will be more transparent at a big event with lots of good sailors in it. The sailors taking part in a club evening series could be any standard whatsoever, indeed, this is not even disclosed or taken into account. This means any attempt to lift a purely statistically-based return from the club races is totally meaningless if we are trying to represent the relative performances of the boats only, and not the sailors in them. At the big winter events, the relative standards of the sailors is there to see and can be taken into account too, and the differences between the top sailors in each class will be smaller. You can assume that Chips Howarth is approximately the same standard as Nick Craig, who is approximately the same standard as Geoff Carveth, who is approximately the same standard as Richard Whitworth, who is approximately the same standard as Jim Hunt etc. They are all very good sailors, who would be capable of winning a nationals in a number of classes.
I think it's a fundamentally flawed approach to have a purely statistically-based handicap system. No system will be faultless, and it's not the intention of handicap racing to provide perfect racing. I think any system though, should strive towards a situation where every class is capable of winning a big handicap event in the right hands, in one certain set of conditions. At present, there isn't a sailor or a set of conditions or circumstances which would ever result in a Laser winning the Bloody Mary or the Grafham GP. Not in a million years would this happen, so obviously there is something wrong here. I think this is an example of where a committee needs to be involved to say "enough's enough." and put a few handicaps right. |
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Granite ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 May 04 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 476 |
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A measurement system is unlikely to work in dinghy's because the performance is non linear. There is significant performance change you get when the boat starts to plane. Hull shape has a significant impact on this. If you look at the Cherubs the older 70's early 80's boats had much more rocker and were quicker in the light stuff than the later boats that were designed to get on the plane ealier. In the light stuff you could keep up with the more modern boats easily, however once they started to plane they just dissapeared. As the wind increased more the older designs would start to plane as well but it needed more to get going. The Differences in hull shape were extremely subtle for any sort of measurement system to pick out but quite significant on the race couse in the sort of wind that is normally experianced. |
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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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Scooby_simon ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
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Use a boat measurement based handicap system. You know it makes sense.
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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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They can (and should) be fed into the results just like any other event in the organising club's return. But why do you think they should be a better platform than Puddleduck SCs evening series? The big events I've looked at haven't looked any more helpful than my club evening series in working out a meaningful handicap. Far less in fact because our evening series is many more races in many more conditions.
Well they do pretty much that, except that it is very firmly statistically based and no nonsense of the "XYZs have a gift handicap - we'd better change it" type. The reason most of them don't change much is because the data is pretty good, all things being considered. I used to have a *lot* of doubts about the PY system, and some of the things that used to happen to my own Class' handicap in particular. However I've examined it in detail, gone to the seminars, talked to some of the people involved, seen some of the data etc. As a result I'm convinced that the RYA are doing the best possible job within the inherent limitations of the system. If you can find several hundred thousand quid there is doubtless more that could be done, but without that the system really is as good as you're going to get. The best way to improve the system is to make sure your club putrs a decent effort into its PN return each year. |
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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Handicaps like that are very common here in Oz. They're even used in
national championships in many classes, and they give people some sort
of recognition for improving performance. What's the problem with sharing the joy?
Edited by Chris 249 |
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