Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Classic Boat PY's |
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Blobby ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 779 |
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I agree - excellence should be recognised, rewarded and encouraged. However, I think there are benefits in encouraging anybody who wants to sail and race and this seemed a well thought out and effective system. The balance of the system was pretty good in this case. At PDYC, series racing was held alternate weekends with trophy races between. So in 1 year you had 4 quarterly series and 26 trophy races. The helm handicap system applied to 50% of the races, but only 12% of the prizes. Plenty of reward there for the top sailors. BUT also, plenty of encouragement for those new to the scene and those looking to improve. As with all sports, you look to set goals for the season. Having a helm handicap system gives you another way of measuring it - someones aim for the season could be to reduce their handicap by 10points. It also gives you a great guide for awarding the "most improved sailor" trophy. I don't know if this is a system you could operate at national or open meeting level within a class that effectively, but at club level it did work. |
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Bruce Starbuck ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 124 |
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Hmm, I'm not in favour of any form of helm handicapping, except for one-off club fun days maybe. Life's just not like that; why should someone be marked down for being good? It's like in the Krypton Factor, when they used to let the fat ones go first on the assault course! What was that all about??!! Same applies to "classic" handicaps too, in my opinion. I get the idea, but I'm not comfortable with the idea of someone being punished for having a good boat, and others being rewarded for having a rubbish boat. It all reminds me of the non-competitive school sports day scenario, when none of the kids are allowed to lose, in case they get upset or mentally scarred! Surely having a competitive boat is part of the game, and is something to strive towards.
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Blobby ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 779 |
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I used to sail at Port Dickson SC in Malaysia. They used to have a helm handicap system there for series races, with boat handicaps only applying for trophy races. This had two very good benefits - one it encouraged sailors to do the club series as anyone who sailed better than their normal level could win the series, but the best helms still got their names on the trophies. However, this system also lets you see numerically the difference in the suitability of a boat for the conditions and the relative skill of the crews. For example, two sailors were generally acepted to be of equal ability, fitness and skill. BUT their personal handicaps differed by about 3%. This was seen to be a reflection of how suited the two classes they sailed were to the particular conditions. A helm handicap system is very simple to manage for a club or a class, it also highlights skill differences between fleets and between classes. |
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Bruce Starbuck ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 14 Sep 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 124 |
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Surely the results from all the big winter handicap events should be fed into the consideration process somehow. They provide a far better platform for comparison than the results of the evening series at "Puddleduck SC"! I think it's been established that the relative skill of the sailors is by far the most important factor, but it's also the one thing that can't be measured, which leads me to believe that the best way to update the PYs is for a small RYA committee to meet once a year, say at the end of February after all the winter events, and review and adjust all the handicaps as they see fit. These could be published to coincide with the Dinghy show. It would be cool if they changed about more than they do at present; it'd spice it up a bit and be a good talking point at Ally Pally.
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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I did something like this some years ago and I came to the conclusion the output was hopelessly skewed by weather conditions and other factors and had a tiny fraction of the statistical validity of the current system. You'll also find that in fact different fleets turn up with quide widely differing levels of sailors as far as Championdship results go. The variation in speed between different boats of the same class is so big compared to between boats of vaguely similar classes that you just need as much data as possible. |
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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In Oz, the main yardstick figures come from one state (Victoria) but I
think the compilers demand more information about the race (course
length, wind, angles, sea conditions etc IIRC) than in the UK IIRC. So
it's such a hassle that few people put them in. I don't think there's a
Crew Skill Factor but I think you have to put a note in for national
champions etc.
As a result, some classes can be badly skewed. On my IC, I have a worse handicap than the AC in the UK, probably because there are only two ICs in Victoria and one finished 6th in the worlds and the other is normally faster! So the handicap is skewed badly by the fact that we must be the only class where all the numbers are created from guys in the top 10 in the world. The Moths had the opposite "problem". For years there were no narrow skiffs racing in clubs that did returns, so the yardstick stayed about 10% higher than the Moths thought they should be. At my old club's major regatta we used to get guys like the 2 time world Contender champ, 3 time world Flying Dutchman champ and 3 time world Moth champ plus a Laser Masters runner-up on a Tasar, the Fireball that was 4th in the worlds, IIRC, the former Sharpie champ etc etc etc. All these boats on one course and two lines in open water was perfect for adjusting the yardstick - but IIRC the handicapper never saw any change in the final yardstick as a result of his input and the input was such a hassle to prepare he gave it up. |
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redback ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Tunbridge Wells Online Status: Offline Posts: 1502 |
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What do they do in other countries? I think we have forum members from France, US and Australia out there - what happens in your country?
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Garry ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 536 |
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Hector
The problem with this is it might drastically skew the results for the average sailor with easy to sail boats coming out best (smallest variation)! Its also not a statistically sound approach. You could run a series of trials with a random selection of sailors all sailing each boat in a number of varying length races in varying conditions - but I'd have to give it some thought before I would suggest that might be a better or even statistically sound approach. Edited by Garry |
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Garry
Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
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Hector ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Location: Otley, Yorkshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 750 |
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This may not be the right forum but seems to be the best about PYs. I agree with the earlier suggestion that major handicap events could be used as a 'return' to aid the RYA with adjusting handicaps. As these events are (predominantly) attended by good / top end sailors from various classes they are certainly more relevant than a return from say Puddleduck S C where the local hot shot happens to sail a Maidupclass really well thus depressing the handicap for all Maidupclass sailors but also raising the handicaps of 'whatever' classe(s) he thrashes. Has anyone thought of actually doing the exercise - that is going to say the Grafham GP site and working out the various PYs acheived?. Do several events - last weeks Steve Nicholson and this weekends Tiger Trophy for instance and the accuracy increases. Anyone up to the task? |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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I agree. Don't forget, the RYA tell us (the clubs) to alter numbers to suit local conditions. This also goes for boat ages. The best thing class associations can do is give recommendations of alterations on their websites, so the poor *** who has to make decisions at a club firstly has data, and secondly something to send the whingers off to look at when they get fed up being beaten by an old boat being sailed by a very good helm. As the data starts to be used by the clubs, returns will get sent to the RYA (we hope!) and the RYA will possibly be able to make some sense of it all! Until the handicaps for classic boats are being used regularly by clubs, the RYA surely can do nothing. |
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