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Let's improve the Laser mainsail!
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bentye View Drop Down
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Posts: 9 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bentye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Let's improve the Laser mainsail!
    Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 10:32pm
what merlinboy says is interesting but would a new sail be approved by ISAF for olympic events remember the decision to change the laser does not rest with laser. If they change the design without approaching the association they have formed a new class. As the whole point of racing is to start racing who is going to buy a flash sail that is not class legel.
want a cheap modern and fast single hander then why not buy an rs vareo or rs 300 or finn or europe, the answer is because you will have no one to race in your local area. you may get more for your money put is the experience better, of course not we are buying into an experience not a comodity and that is why laser does not have to discount to make sales.
For those that hate the laser brand the good news is that fleets outside the traditional laser are tiny. Laser has grown on the back of the original boat. Although sails are high no other boat in their range sees high numbers at national events. In this respect RS although also a big player produce boats people want to race.
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Posts: 126 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Adds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 4:42pm
More Classes!?! Don't get this forum started
Cheers Dudes
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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 4:35pm
I think we are moving away fromthe original thread, lasers are what they are, the sail is VERY over priced for what it is, i dont think they should develop the sail to much, but they should make it allot cheaper, therefore they would sell allot more and hence improve overall profitability.  Another point is why dont they develop an XD sail, you can buy a standard laser or an xd laser so why not make an xd sail, which is more durable with the latest XD system charge £400 for that as it would last longer and charge £250 or £300 for a club sail (the current one)  This would surely make more sense.
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bentye View Drop Down
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Posts: 9 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bentye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 4:13pm

The Laser isn't really a training boat in the same sense as a Pico. And if the training centres really did control the manufacturers to the extent you claim, surely the only boats produced by Laser would be the Pico, Vago and D16.

[/QUOTE]

oh really the laser is not a training boat, in many parts of the world it is and you will find any improver course you book onto will be on a laser. And lets look at the rest of the range. THe laser 2000 and stratos used for nearly all rya instructor courses and double hander learn to sail courses, only starting to loose favour as plastic rs vision is cheaper.
the pico, funboat, bahia, dart 16 and vago all major player in youth training and Med setups. That only leaves the SB3 out of the hands of the big boys and thats a sportsboat that attracts major advertising. It certainly fair to say laser has its hand in the pie a lot  more then RS.

As for the notion that the XD pack was created to force people into buying new sails is crazy. It was alogical development that made the boats easier to sail. Before thee packs came along it was almost impossible to adjust controls during a race. If they had of brought out carbon top sections and fully battened sails at the same time the average club sailor would not able to afford it and it would split the class. I have seen old laser with wooden tillers was the move to aluminium and now carbon a marketing tool or to allow the class to develope in a sustainable way?
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English Dave View Drop Down
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 3:25pm

Bentye, you have made some very interesting points but missed some of mine.

The Laser has as many idiosynchracies as any other. The rudder is too short, the mast too stiff, the transom too square and the little rubber bung keeps on finding its way back into the self bailer unless you eat it or something. And you are right - that's the boat - love it or leave it. (My Hurricane is too heavy, takes too long to rig, the centre-boards are too short and the spinnaker chute is a phallic joke amongst the cat community. Best boat I've ever owned.)

But Laser moved the goalposts when they allowed the powerpack to be legal. When introducing a device that gives so much power to the vang and cunningham they should also have allowed the sail to be reinforced. My argument is that for the money they charge for the current mainsail you can get so much more in terms of design and construction. And should expect it to last longer.

SMOD classes may remove the "tinkering in the shed" aspect of boat preparation but they mean that to remain competitive at the top level you have to race with new sails at every major event. With with the Laser powerpack the company seem to have purposely introduced a device that will reduce the competitive life of the sail. And this is now effecting your average club sailor.

The Laser isn't really a training boat in the same sense as a Pico. And if the training centres really did control the manufacturers to the extent you claim, surely the only boats produced by Laser would be the Pico, Vago and D16.

It's an unfortunate truth that our sport is low profile because it is seen as elitist. And charging £400 for a small sheet of dacron will only reinforce that perception.
English Dave
Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

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bentye View Drop Down
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Posts: 9 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bentye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 2:29pm
yes that is the whole point the big operators control the whole market. They tell laser and rs what products they want and how much they will pay for them. In return rs and laser get total saturation of all new sailors coming into the sport. They also get an enormous test bed, my centre last year was open 365 days of the year and my boats were used all the time. Windspeeds above 30 knots were common and on some days 50 plus. The kit is on the water all the time. These boats get more use in a month then the average club boat in several seasons. This acts as an amazing test bed for the likes of laser and RS. you only have to look at laser opening up its own school to see how important training is to the marketing.
most people will agree that plastic boats are cheap and nasty, but they survive longer on a beach. To produce the roto-moulds cost thundreds of thousands and without selling in volume they have an ecomic diseaster on their hands. small scale builders will never able to compete in this market.

yes it is big brother capitalism but it does stop our sport becoming elitist and low profile. The reality that sailing is a multi sided sport and in the end as a consumer we have the power.
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Posts: 318 		Post Options Post Options   Quote foaminatthedeck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

I understand that buying in bulk - Economys of scale and all that, but i work in the motor trade and manufacturors supple renatl companys with thousands of cars (making the likes of laser and RS small fry in comparison to numbers) Hertz or enterprise dont get 50% discounts, so why should sunsail etc.  this has got to be poor management by laser, also why should the retail public pay for the big profit making companys getting a boat cheap? i just dont understand ? if laser and RS monoplolise the market then they should be able to dictate to sunsail etc what they will pay for buying 100 picos etc.  I will prob get told of for this but sounds like brown envelopes flying arround the place to me
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foaminatthedeck View Drop Down
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Posts: 318 		Post Options Post Options   Quote foaminatthedeck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 2:21pm

Originally posted by Merlinboy

I will prob get told of for this but sounds like brown envelopes flying arround the place to me

Wouldn't surprise me from my experence working for sunsail they certainly were not fussed about giving the locals bungs to get things done.

It is also worth noting that when Laser etc give large discounts to sailing schools they are getting free advertiseing and exposing there products to their target market.

I know several novice sailors who got boats after sailing them with sunsail, god know this is the only way Topper sold any Sport 14 and 16s to the private market.

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Merlinboy View Drop Down
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Posts: 3169 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 1:34pm
I understand that buying in bulk - Economys of scale and all that, but i work in the motor trade and manufacturors supple renatl companys with thousands of cars (making the likes of laser and RS small fry in comparison to numbers) Hertz or enterprise dont get 50% discounts, so why should sunsail etc.  this has got to be poor management by laser, also why should the retail public pay for the big profit making companys getting a boat cheap? i just dont understand ? if laser and RS monoplolise the market then they should be able to dictate to sunsail etc what they will pay for buying 100 picos etc.  I will prob get told of for this but sounds like brown envelopes flying arround the place to me
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bentye View Drop Down
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Posts: 9 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bentye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 1:22pm
laser and RS will always dominate because most other builders are small scale. This is great because they other a more bespoke design and better supports for their clients, however they cannot compete.

How do new sailors choice a boat to buy:
(1) what you learnt to sail in at a club or on holiday- Due to numbers this is always going to be from laser or RS.
(2) what is sailed at your local club, again going to be laser or RS
(3) what is available on the second hand market, again due to volume laser or RS.

so who do laser and RS design for. The answer is large overseas holiday companies (markwarner, sunsail, nielson etc) and big uk  training centres (plas,rockley, uksa etc.)  They buy in bulk and recieve a vast discount for this ie new pico delivered £1200. The current market price is just under £2500. When they advertise fleet size this is due to bulk buying not individual sales. The markup on spares and private sails is to cover this discount and distorts the real price. The average price laser sells boats for would surprise most people.

Big companies want boats that are easy to sail, fun, cheap to maintain and have spares that are the same across the range. For example the daggerboard for an rs feva is the same as on the vero. these types of boats are rarely going to appeal to hard core racers but they introduce a huge number of people into the sport.
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