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catmandoo View Drop Down
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Posts: 545 		Post Options Post Options   Quote catmandoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: laser 4000?
    Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 10:57am

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise , 29ers are as wobbly as hell, but when mastered the world is your oyster , my kids sailed a 29er for a year and had a great time , they are excellent boats and with easily depowered rigs and light weight they are physically easier to sail than a 4000 ,

My kids went from being the ideal weight for a 29er to far too heavy in a year , but learnt heaps and had a great time , 29ers in great demand sold no trouble.

When they got the 29er they wouldn't have been able to pull a 4000 up the slip , now no trouble.

 

Bought 4000 , pick of crop , buyers market , and they had a great time sailing that too , still growing like weeds have gone from racks full out and all weights to half in racks and less weights .

 

The great thing is that as you grow you change equalisation to suit , and it works.

Both boats are well built , virtually bullet proof , competitevely last for ages.

 

 
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furtive View Drop Down
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Posts: 188 		Post Options Post Options   Quote furtive Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 11:20am
Originally posted by English Dave

The 4k's mast is pretty stiff and unforgiving which means the crew finds it difficult to get settled on the wire compared to the automatic Bethwaite rig of the 29er. So its harder to drive hard and this, in turn, makes the boat less stable

Not quite sure what you mean by this Dave. OK, the 4000 doesn't have the flexi mast top of the 29er, but the mast isn't that stiff, and you can depower very easily using the right combination of lowers/rake/RT. But I've never noticed my crew being unsettled on the wire - this is much more likely to be down to the helm not sailing the boat flat!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 11:38am
I agree with furtive there, stability on a trapeze is rarely to do with the boat but the guy at the back with the stick.  In actaul fact i would say the opposite and that the 29er is the more unsettling boat to trapeze.  Its far lower to the water than the 4000 so your that much closer to getting wiped out. 

Doug.H
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ifoxwell View Drop Down
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Posts: 669 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ifoxwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 11:43am

Certainly the case with boats like the 29er and 4000 however in boats like the ISO and Buzz you can sit hove to in anything up to a F5 and eat your sandwichs. If stability is important they are hard to beat.

Ian
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by ifoxwell

in boats like the ISO and Buzz you can sit hove to in anything up to a F5 and eat your sandwichs.

Maybe, but I always used to sit hove to and eat my energy bar or whatever (not a boat to take sandwiches in) in anything up to F5 in my Cherub - and indeed now do the same thing in my IC. Its hardly a measure of stability. If you want to sit steady in a 29er between races then just rig some backing lines.

I see the gust response of the rig as being crucial. It doesn't matter what strings you've pulled when the gust front comes in at 2 x windspeed: its just down to how the rig behaves dynamically. Put a bit of twist in a dynamic rig and its about three times as survivable. I learned this in a big way when I upgraded my Cherub from a powerful but unyielding tin mast to a quite superbly dynamic carbon one. The top windspeed we could handle the boat in went up by a good 10 knots simply because the dynamic rig gives you time to react.

Edited by JimC
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English Dave View Drop Down
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 12:25pm

Furtive,

Mast stiffness is all relative. Yes you can depower the 4k easy enough but the flex tip that opens and closes the top section of the 29er sail makes for an easier ride without the need to work the tiller all the time to stay on the power. This is probably most noticeable upwind in marginal but gusty trapese conditions. But I'm no expert, even in my own class (not L4000 or 29er) so I'll butt out on this one.

Point about stability being a priority still valid though. Most high-perf assymetric sailors (I'm apparently not allowed to use the word Skiff in case the Aussies object) accept that wipe-outs are part of the deal. And after a few flips your sandwiches will have been long gone!

 
English Dave
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Jack Sparrow View Drop Down
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Posts: 2965 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by English Dave

I'm apparently not allowed to use the word Skiff in case the Aussies object...




but your called English Dave.... come on stand up to those Southern pansies
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English Dave View Drop Down
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 3:40pm

I am the English bloke in a Northern Irish sailing club. My Australian counterpart at a Swords SC outside Dublin is called Aussie Dave. Very creative, these Irish

The Aussies seem to think that Skiffs can only be 18' or 12' which rules out the 49er, I14 etc. I personally find the word skiff far easier to type than high performance assymetric planing dinghy. However, to avoid controversy, and bearing in mind that I sl*gged the Americans yesterday and the Irish today, I'll duck the issue and sail catamarans.

(Although I did have a Vortex a few years ago. Is it, isn't it, etc?)
English Dave
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

It's 'stable'; that's all I can muster up to say about the Vortex... I'm trying to have a positive day


Having tried it in both its an awful lot more practical to sit on the lee side of a Vortex coaching a novice trapeze helm than it is to do the same thing in an RS600...
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Hector View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Hector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by English Dave

(Although I did have a Vortex a few years ago. Is it, isn't it, etc?)

It's 'stable'; that's all I can muster up to say about the Vortex... I'm trying to have a positive day where I don't criticise or moan about anything.

Turnturtle - not sure how that comment is relevant or contributes anything to this discussion but then neither does this link!

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2 038&KW=turnturtle&PN=0&TPN=2



Edited by Hector
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