Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Blobby ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 779 |
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Definition of non-tactical: does not employ identical tactics to the class I sail in. The point of class racing is to get around the course faster than every body else. To do this you need to maximise VMG. Boatspeed gets you going quickly in a direction. Tactics get you going in the right direction. You won't win in any class unless you get both right (through luck or judgement |
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One step forwards, 2 steps back...
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m_liddell ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 27 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 583 |
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This is even more important in waves since certainly Lasers are not going to be going faster than the wave speed too often on a running leg. Catching waves sailing by the lee etc. all come into play. |
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CT249 ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 08 Jul 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 399 |
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I think the fascinating thing is that everyone is so keen to say that their class is the most tactical.
Why? Tactics are just ONE part of sailing, yet it's the one part of sailing that everyone clamours to claim to be the best in. Very strange. You don't see Enterprise sailors saying that they are the best in the art of keeping a twitchy tippy boat like a skiff with the mast pointing up and the centreboard pointing down. You don't see Dragon sailors demanding that they are the fittest. You don't see windsurfers saying that they are the best at gybing spinnakers. You don't see Laser sailors saying that they are the best at extracting the last knot when you're doing over 20 knots. But everyone seems to want to say that their class is THE most tactical. It certainly seems rubbish to me. Every boat demands different things. It's just no use being the world's best tactician if you're sailing a Canoe in 20 knots if you can't keep the thing upright. It's no use being the world's best boathandler in a Flying 15 in 5 knots. Some classes stress speed or boathandling, some stress tactics. I race one class against a multiple national champ in a hot dinghy classs. He's a great tactician on confined waters. I kick his butt almost every time there's a good breeze even in confined water in oscillating shifts, and I'm not a great tactician, especially in those conditions. Why? Because in this class it's hard to stay dry and upright, and he goes the right way and then goes slow or falls over. No matter his good tactics are, he gets creamed when he falls over and even if he doesn't you can just go the same way and burn him off with sheer pace.....so tactical skill is not what counts. I spend less time worrying about windshifts than I would if I was sailing a Laser or Flying 15 or Tasar, more time worrying about staying up and going fast, and beat him (unless it's light, when I'm dumb AND slow). There's an example of a class where tactics are LESS important than in other classes because having 50% better tactics will leave you well behind a guy with 10% better handling and speed. It's still a great class because it has many other attributes. If we were all in Lasers, I'd have to worry more about tactics and less about staying up (because none of us will fall over much) and less about speed (because there's not much difference between fast and slow). I'm sure that in the classes I sail, the slow boats are more tactical, the fast boats are more about extracting speed. To me, that doesn't make the slow boats any better because getting sort of OK at tactics isn't all that hard. Learning how to extract the last bit of speed in high performance boats, now that's an arcane ability I wish I had and I'm jealous of it. I will now try an experiment....... "I have sailed some classes/disciplines where tactics are not important, and some classes where tactics are less important than in many classes". Sits.....watches.....listens......waits. Phew, the world DIDN'T end. 'Scuse the rave. Edited by CT249 |
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allanorton ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 21 Nov 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 228 |
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There comes a point where no matter what boat you sail, no matter how diificult it is to sail (at first), you may improve to the point where sailing fast and boat handling becomes natural, and then the use of tactics is what will get you winning. |
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Guest ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Who's saying that? I think you just repeated me above ... |
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CT249 ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 08 Jul 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 399 |
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Sorry Rick, meant to say I was agreeing with you. Sorry for the copyright blunder
![]() Allan, I'm second nationally in the class I was using as an example, won the breezy race last nats by almost a leg, so boathandling isn't an issue. It's a longboard windsurfer class; I used it as an example because that way no one here could feel I was running down their class. However the same principles can apply in some dinghy classes. Our windsurfer longboard racing here includes guys who have been both world class in boards and Olympic 470 rep, 18 Worlds winner, etc, and others who have been Radial champs, Youth worlds two-man dinghy medallists etc so it's not a case of them being tactical minnows. However, since there's such large gains to be made in handling and speed in a breeze in boards, tactics play a much lesser role in such conditions than in a class like a Laser. The same can apply to a certain extent in boat classes (and certainly it seems to apply to the same extent in at least one dinghy class I sail). Edited by CT249 |
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Blobby ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 779 |
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Just a quick question to Rick & CT249 - since when did tactics come down to simply tacking on a header? |
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One step forwards, 2 steps back...
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CT249 ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 08 Jul 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 399 |
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Never, they're always more complicated.
It's just that in some classes they are more important than others as far as I can see. To take the argument to an extreme. Class A is extremely stable and basically a bunch of drunks who have never even been on a cross-channel ferry couldn't tip it over. It can't be roll tacked, is very easy to get around corners. Tuning is basically impossible (no outhaul, no traveller, no vang etc). There are 40 in a race, in 15 knots of breeze. Because of the design, almost anyone can get one going at 4 knots and the fastest possible speed in such conditions is 4.0000001 knots. In such a class, surely the smart thing would be to not worry much about falling over and not to worry too much about trying to extract that extra .0000001 knot. Instead surely you would concentrate on working the fleet, the tide, and the shifts ie tactics. Class B has negative natural stability. It is 13 feet long and has a 48 foot high rig and 25' wide racks. It is a singlehander sailed from trap. It cannot recover from a capsize and it capsizes as soon as it heels more than 15 degrees 'cause the wings dig in. When sailed fast, it does 39 knots upwind and 68 knots downwind. Make the slightest mistake in boathandling and you're stopped, capsized and out of the race. Most sailors take 18 years of full-time sailing to get to the stage where they can get around a racetrack. There are only 2 such sailors in the race and 8 others. The tide in both cases is 1/4 knot to the left and 0 to the right. The wind is 15 knots and swinging 35 degrees left with minor oscillations. In this example, what sort of priority would you devote to tactics when sailing boat A? Would you devote the same proportion of your skill and experience to tactics when sailing boat B, remembering that the slightest mistake will put you out of the race? |
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Blobby ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 779 |
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Chris - thankyou for proving my original point. Strategy = the big picture plan of how to sail the race. Tactics = the small details that you employ to execute your plan no matter what boat you sail in. In boat A above, the strategy is sail the shortest distance. Your tactics are therefore to tack on the shifts and play the tide and the fleet. In boat B your strategy is to eliminate boat handling errors. Your tactics are therefore to minimise changes in direction, keep clear of other boats etc. So maybe start on port, hit the right hand corner etc. Do you have to pay the same attention to windshifts in each boat? Yes because in boat A you need to tack and in boat B you need to compensate for the change in direction to keep moving and not capsize. Do you pay attention to tide in Boat A - yes, boat b no. Do you pay attention to gusts in Boat A - not really, boat b yes. Do you pay attention to sail trim and tuning in Boat A - no, boat B - yes. In my view each of these is a tactical decision - do I take time to adjust something about what I am doing in response to a change in the race situation. In both cases you are making tactical decisions to ensure that you execute the strategy that will get you to end of the race first. BUT the tactics you employ and the frame of reference are different. |
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One step forwards, 2 steps back...
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CT249 ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 08 Jul 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 399 |
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Looks like we're arguing at cross purposes a bit; inevitable since none of us have really defined what we mean by tactics. Whoops!
Most of the stuff you put as "tactics" in boat B, I'd call boathandling. Stuart Walker writes of (b) "the application of strategic principles concerning wind and tide to sail the optimal course" (strategy) and (d) "the application of tactical principles to prevent harmful interference from other boats and to interfere with other boats to one's advantage". (tactics) Other people have said that strategy is what you would do to get around the course fastest if you were racing along (as in a time trial) and tactics are what you add on to that when other boats are racing against you (ie controlling the fleet, avoiding bad air, minimising loss and maximising gain etc). I think the North U course talks of "tactics" as being working windshifts, current, bad air and "leverage" to ensure you lose or gain on shifts....that sort of thing. But I suppose these examples show that since "tactics" is defined differently even by people as sharp as Walker and North U, we'll have trouble in a discussion such as this. I have a fairly narrow definition of strategy, like Walker's. I wouldn't call paying attention to windshifts (as in your example) in boat B tactics in that case; to me (and North U) that's boathandling or (b) to Walker. I'd certainly pay attention to gusts in both, but in A I'd be playing the angles in the fan of the gusts (tactics) and in B I'd be keeping the boat upright and going fast (boathandling/boatspeed in my own definition). When you're going upwind in a gusty 15-25 on the end of a Canoe plank, frantically working the mainsheet, hiking your guts out, straining to stay aboard the plank, trying to flick the rotten mainsheet tail back aboard with your left eyebrow, occasionally getting slam-dunked and trying to keep an eye on Seth Dunbar (5th worlds) coming up astern at a rate of knots after recovering from a swim, I just don't seem to find the same amount of leisure and brainpower to devote to tactics as when I'm cruising along in the same conditions in the Flying 15 or Tasar, snug on a very comfortable sidedeck, secure in the knowledge I'm unlikely to capsize and that my opposition are also unlikely to take a dive. But maybe it's just me. Maybe the other guys miraculously grow extra neurons, so they can suddenly find the extra brainpower to handle a tippy boat AND still have as many neurons left over for tactics. But as far as I can see, in a boat that's a doddle to handle you have more available brainpower and attention to devote to tactics (whether on the race course at a particular time or in the overall campaign) than in a boat where even the best sailors are taking a lot of their available energy just keeping the sails dry and everything vaguely quick. It's a very good point you made, though......we must work out what we're debating first! ![]() ![]() Edited by CT249 |
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