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The RS900 - 'our' fantasy dinghy!
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oldarn View Drop Down
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The RS900 - 'our' fantasy dinghy!
    Posted: 11 Dec 08 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by Chas int505

Taking the initial point, though - as the Alto
develops (my suspicion is that it is going to need some controls, to keep
the power under check).  Forestay, mast ram and shrouds ought to be
enough.  Am sure that the guys at your club will be happy to show you
8378.  That is a great boat that has finished top 6/7 at the nationals each
year for the last decade or so.


Anyhow - hope to see you @ Excel.


Chas


 


I recall that in the 70's the 505 only had adjustable kicker, cunningham,
and outhaul, perhaps jib/forestay and with only hyfields on the shrouds.
Racing was great, very tacktical and natural seat of the pants stuff. Races
were won by naturally good sailors, usually non professionals. Then
system after system was added until the 505 became as complicated as a
formula one car; almost as expensive and also requiring a expensive
professional driver.
I love the 505, but it is now an elite racing machine at the top level, and
success at this level is out of reach for even wealthy amateurs.

The AltO is not the same animal at all. It is designed to be modern and
affordable, while being only marginally slower than the 505. It is designed
to bring back fast and exciting tactical club racing with only controls
necessary to give performance across the wind range. It should be no
threat to the 505, but will make a great trainer for those aspiring to reach
the dizzy heights of winning major events in an elite, non olympic class.

thefastexcitingrunningasymmetric
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Posts: 31 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chas int505 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 08 at 8:49am

agree oldarn, and am looking forward to seeing a decent 16 foot plus trad shaped boat performing well..!

Of course the thread is about an ultimate dinghy design (which - for me - hasn't been invented yet).  Simply the reason I raise adjustability is that it has become so central to the all round performance of designs that are otherwise overpowered - f/ball, 505, fd etc.

If someone wants to develop in this area, they need to be aware of it.....or else you end up designing something that has a narrower performance window - aka the 49er medal race......or an RS800 in less than about 10 knots.  So not an ultimate design.  I do applaud your efforts, though!
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Posts: 440 		Post Options Post Options   Quote oldarn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 08 at 12:48pm
So I guess we are there, well almost! As Chas Int505 suggests it should be
about 16ft and a traditional hull shape. Consensus suggests it should be
two person single wire and controllable across the wind range, thus
dictating a carbon mast. For performance and longevity it needs to be of
epoxy, After that? Fantasy!
Re. the lack of performance of the 49er and RS800 in lighter winds. Surely
that is more to do with being a skiff!!
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 08 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by oldarn

So I guess we are there, well almost! As Chas Int505 suggests it should be
about 16ft and a traditional hull shape. Consensus suggests it should be
two person single wire and controllable across the wind range, thus
dictating a carbon mast. For performance and longevity it needs to be of
epoxy, After that? Fantasy!
Re. the lack of performance of the 49er and RS800 in lighter winds. Surely
that is more to do with being a skiff!!


It is the price that has been paid for more speed in medium breezes. I guess the ultimate design would find a way round the compromises that are the nature of hull/rig design.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posts: 271 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 08 at 7:01pm
The carbon mast is, in my opinion, not the answer to good performance across the wind range. Charlie is right that it requires the adjustability of boats like the 505 and FD. It may not be trendy, but believe it or not people do manage to make tactical decisions and stay on top of the rig - it can be done!
No FD? No Comment!
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 08 at 7:07pm

Originally posted by NeilP

The carbon mast is, in my opinion, not the answer to good performance across the wind range.

Please elaborate.

I've presently got one at the top of my wish list, for 1) gust response & 2) static stability.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Dec 08 at 10:27pm
NeilP
I think certain classes that have moved from ally to carbon wouldn't agree
with you on that.
I'll double check but I'm pretty sure what phantom sailors I know were pretty
damn happy with the move to carbon as they could handle the bigger breeze
easier and got the same performance in the lighter and medium wind that
they had with an ally rig.
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Posts: 271 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 08 at 12:57am

The FD class moved several years ago, so I do have some experience of this. The expeience of the FD class seems to be that the ultimate performance gain is small - if it exists - and comes mainly from improved gust response in the tip and reduced weight aloft which reduces pitching and rolling moment so the boat is easier to handle in gusts and waves. In terms of performance through the wind range, which was what I was talking about, the carbon mast has made no difference. We're talking about tuning to depower, which still has to be done to exactly the same extent as with a tin rig. Overall, the differences are very small, probably negligible on flat water. Mind you, this is probably because of the legacy of the Olympic era which has given us a choice of several highly developed ally mast sections, the tuning of which is now extremely well understood. Carbon, on the other hand, is still way down the development curve and there may be benefits still to come.

I can't speak for the Phantoms, but that's our experience. If there's been a gain, it's almost all in ease of boat-handling rather than any step-change in speed or reduced need for tuning skills.

Neil
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Posts: 164 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jamie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 08 at 9:02am

I would tend to think that if anything the carbon stick has increased the need for tuning ability. The gust responsiveness is all very will but it indicates a less stiff mast, and to keep everything working well you need to be more on top of the tuning, paticularly with respect to the lowers, to controll lower mast bend. I would assume that it is much easier to get the tuning wrong on the new FD carbon sticks than it would be on the old tin sticks, paticularly the Gamma.

This is my observation, however my experience of the black stuff is limited. 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 08 at 9:24am
Originally posted by NeilP

In terms of performance through the wind range, which was what I was talking about, the carbon mast has made no difference.

Yeah but you stuck with the triangular sail, so most of the benefits of being able to do things with planform are absent.
I'm not saying that it was wrong to do do - I see no point at all in sticking a 2000s rig on a 1950s hull, but you won't see the performance benefits from the new material if the rest of the platform isn't redesigned to match.
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