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Important announcement from the Tornados |
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Guest 
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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 Topic: Important announcement from the TornadosPosted: 23 Oct 08 at 12:01pm |
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OK; I guess my point is whilst they may have been all using similar kit they would have evaluated other options to reach that decision at some considerable cost. Anyway; it's a smart move and one that gives the T some chance of the cat slot if it ever reappears. |
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Stuart O
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Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 10:31am |
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No Rick it isnt....I was arguing that it isnt that big a step to SMOD than people think. I was pointing out apart from sails, and that is the expensive part, equipment is very similar at the top level. Which is what I was thinking you meant by 'If that is true what is the point?' you quoted me and I specifically excluded sails from my argument as the quote you used shows.
An Olympic campaign is expensive whichever class you sail, especially the non SMOD classes. I totally accept that, especially this year, an arms race is what we had and a lot of sabre rattling too...which IMHO did NOT do the class any good. Also ended up an arms race in the Finns, stars etc too, But as their future is assured by ISAF they dont have to argue about costs. The perception of the Tornado has always been that it is an expensive boat, see other threads for arguments, and the class has taken steps with this proposal to hopefully reduce the costs of a campaign and return to the olympic fold, where I and many others beleive it should be. The class has listened to arguments put forward by authorities and has reacted to these arguments and put forward a proposal. For the Record I have argued before for majority of these changes, mainly the sails argument, and am fully behind these proposals. Edited by Stuart O |
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Guest
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 23 Oct 08 at 8:56am |
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I'm not arguing I am saying why bother if you believe that peole didn't spend lots of money getting to that point? You seem to be saying it wasn't an arms race anyway but were going SMOD to lower costs. Just admit it WAS and arms race and then we understand. "The idea is to transform Tornado racing from an arms race back into a sailing race accessible to everyone and conducted on a level-playing field. " from Carolijn Brouwer press release. Seems your positon is slightly at odd with the above quote. |
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Stuart O
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Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 10:32pm |
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Doug the point I was trying to make is that the argument about equipment is almost removed by making one design sails. Sure Roger wins in RS200 but its good to know that if you sail against him in a 200 you have the same equipment....the merlin yes you can have the same equipment or are you? Theres no argument oh such and such spent x amount on sail development or equipment development and thats why they won.
Rick...If in doubt look at the boats at the Olympics. 15 Boats competing, 14 martsrom 1 Eeles. Masts 15 martsrom masts chutes I believe it was either 12 or 13 Eeles chutes (If Im right I think I only saw 2 soft chutes, USA and NED) |
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Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 10:00pm |
Sorry but thats simply not true. Everyone having the same sails doesn't make things more equal (believe it or not). I keep hearing this said time and time again but when has the best sailor not won?? Whoever puts in the most time and has the most experience pulls into the lead. Examples: Everyone has the same sails in the RS200 class and roger gilbert won. In the merlin rocket class there are lots of sailmakers competing, roger gilbert won. Nick craig won the RS400 where everyone has the same sails and also wins in the OK's and B14 class where there are competing sailmakers. Ben ainslie won in the laser class where everyone has the same sails, and wins in everything else he sails where there are many sailmakers competing. Shall I continue? Making sails single manufacturer does one thing. It damages the health of racing lofts across the world who rely on the business of international classes. Doug Edited by Doug.H |
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Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 8:22pm |
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If that is true whats the point? |
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Stuart O
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Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 5:14pm |
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Catsrule read what they are saying.
for they older boats such as the reg white boats/foils/chutes will be grand fathered into class...ie they will be class legal..so theoretically theyyou would be able to do the olympics in a white/boyer/Eeles As I said the hulls are pretty much 1 design at the moment anyway...and really the top teams either use eeles or marstrom foils as for chutes the majority are using Eeles..if i remember rightly 9 out of the top 10 at the worlds. Sails that is an interesting point as is primarily the reason I beleive that peoples perception of the T an being expensive boat to campaign, Developing sails is seen as expensive. However by one designing the white sails (spinnakers are mainly Gran Segals) would mean that the ability is down to the sailor and not because they have developed a radical sail. My main point is that apart from the sails the boats at the olympics are pretty much one desing as it is. |
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JimC
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Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 5:07pm |
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It may be a silly idea but maybe one way this could be dealt with would be in Sailing Instructions for the grand prix events rather than Class rules. The SIs for the approved Olympic events for every Olympic cycle could mandate XYZ hulls, sails etc, but the weekend warriors could stay with a choice of suppliers as now. It would then be a far simpler process to change the authorised supplier and there would be no need for grandfathering and all the issues it causes. As I remember there's a half precedent in that IIRC ISAF threatened the Tornados with SIs mandating two strings etc if the class turned down the rule change...
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Catsrule
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Joined: 10 Mar 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 61 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 4:58pm |
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Man.... I don't think they should go total one design it takes a part out of olympic tornado sailing. Hulls: Most top teams use mastroms but they're alot of other designs which less serious people use, so hulls could only be one design for the actuall olympics other wise you quite simply telling all the other T sailors that they can't do big events becuase the got some Reg hulls or other design! Foils: Same problem as above, if you've got a set of reg's rudders on a fairly old boat you don't want to have to go and fork out loads to get some marstroms. Chutes: Same problem again as there are so many different chutes around. Sails: Same problem again. This also makes the class intresting as you have to develop you own sails. |
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There's no such thing as bad day on the water!!
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Stuart O
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Joined: 22 Jul 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 514 |
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Posted: 22 Oct 08 at 9:45am |
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Think youll find that Ullman and gran segal is the bigger name in Ts than North.
I agree with Scooby..I dont think for the class it will make that big a difference to be one design or smod. All masts are from marstrom anyway...99% of the fleet use marstrom hulls...foils is a bit more of an issue...with the fleet split between Eeles and marstrom. Chutes the majority use Eeles. Sails I think it would be safe to say the majority of the fleet use an Ullman/Gran segal mix. So a big change? I think its not as big a step as everyone is thinking it is. |
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