Development = faster? |
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redback
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Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Tunbridge Wells Online Status: Offline Posts: 1502 |
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Topic: Development = faster?Posted: 12 Apr 04 at 11:02pm |
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I sail a 4000 and I don't stand an earthly against 400s in my club - but then I sail on a reservoir! I don't care - I know my boat is better in wide open spaces and strong steady winds. If you sail a high performance boat you do get a wider grin at the end of the day.
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Calum_Reid
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Joined: 09 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 59 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 04 at 2:00pm |
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It might just be that the RS400 or Stratos handicaps are righ???
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Javelin
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Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 18 |
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Posted: 12 Apr 04 at 12:56am |
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I dont know whether you have noticed but the Laser 4000 handicap went up one point this year, so did the RS800, now two points better off and the FD is one point worse off. eh??? |
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redback
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Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Tunbridge Wells Online Status: Offline Posts: 1502 |
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Posted: 11 Apr 04 at 7:12pm |
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I've never sailed a Merlin but I recognise a class which has contirbuted greatly to the developement of dinghy racing. I have sailed a RS 400 and love it and I'm usually beaten by one of these each weekend at my reservoir. I don't care thougn because I sail a Laser 4000. This boat is so much fun, I'd rather lose the racing and sail this boat than win in something slower and more competitive. Yes the PY numbers are a poor guide but they are the best we have. We don't change ours since we wouldn't get that glow when we win. If we win in the 4000 we know we really have sailed well, if we lose we don't care we have a bigger grin than anybody else on the pond. |
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 08 Apr 04 at 11:14pm |
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Just to chuck my 2p worth in. I sail at Hunts Sailing Club. We are a small gravel pit, the sailing area is about 50 Acres. We sail all year round and have 2 handicap races on a Sunday from November to March, 1 handicap and 2 class races from April to October and a Wednesday night Handicap that runs from mid April to September. We are by no means a big club compared to say Grafham which is only some 10 miles away but we do contribute one of the biggest PY returns in the country. Now when you consider we only have some 15 differnt classes of boat it becomes difficult for the RYA to give an accurate yardstick for any class. Some people I know would say the Fireball has got a very favourable handicap, I say I would tend to agree but when you think the yardstick is based on club racers and not open circuit racers it is easy to see why. Most club racers are sailing the older narrow bow, deeper rockers hulls (boats older than around 13,000) as opposed to the wider bowed and shallower rocker 'Winder' type hulls. It is easy to see the comparison when you put my boat (11054) up against a modern boat which is superior in every way..... Just my 2p for the melting pot Paul Crew in Fireball 11054 and Helm in Laser 150600 |
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DRLee
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Joined: 05 Apr 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4 |
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Posted: 07 Apr 04 at 9:31pm |
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OK, to pick up on a couple of points above......
But this is true for the top sailors in almost every seriously competitive class. How much handicap racing do you think the top Laser / 49er / Fireball / whatever crews do? The PY is merely reflects the performance of the average sailor in any particular class. For example, I'm sure Ben Ainslie can consistently sail his Finn below the recognised PY for that class, but does that mean the Finn PY is wrong? There are other flaws with the PY system. Take the fact that certain boats perform much better in certain conditions, eg the National 12 in a drifter, or the 420 in a blow. If you have one PY for all conditions, how can the racing be totally fair for all competitors?
The Merlin is a restricted class rather than a development class. As such, the rules are framed to encourage gradual development whilst preventing older boats becoming outclassed overnight - evolution rather than revolution. The most popular design at the front of the Merlin fleet is the Canterbury Tales, a design which actually dates back to 1988. Since then the class has adopted carbon rigs and the materials used for the hulls may have moved on from wood to FRP. It is fair to say that the latest generation of Merlins are a touch quicker than those of ten years ago, but it is not a huge difference in performance. In fact I managed to sail my ten year old Merlin into the top third of the championship fleet last year. Not quick enough to win the champs, but not totally off the pace either (just like ten year old boats in most other classes!), and surely demonstrating that things haven't really moved on that much. Also, how many other classes are undergoing 'development'? Many so called one designs allow builders to tweak hull shape within the tolerances, Fireball, Enterprise and Hornet to name a few. The materials and techniques which have recently transformed building within the Merlin fleet were developed by Winder boats in their very successful Fireballs. And lots of one design classes are experimenting with carbon rigs and kevlar sails. Even strict one designs such as the Laser see development - consider the new rig controls which make the boat easier to sail, hence faster around the course. Of course, developments in these other classes will eventually be reflected with revised PYs.....as will changes in the Merlin Rocket. To finish this rant, just remember that PY handicap racing can never be completely fair, so don't take it too seriously. The answer is to buy an example of a popular class at your club and get out fleet racing. Better still, rather than moaning about the Merlin PY number, why not come and try sailing one yourself and see what a superb boat it is with such a friendly and highly competitive circuit! |
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Ent Man
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 32 |
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Posted: 06 Apr 04 at 12:36pm |
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Why don't the RYA include the results of events like the Bartley Burnout, Bloody Mary and Grafham Grand Prix etc. in the PY handicap returns process. Surely with the Bloody mary ellapsed times could be recorded. This may encourage sailors from more classes to enter knowing that it could effect the handicap racing at their clubs. Everyone knows that the handicap system gives an average handicap for the class so it will never be perfect. At Frampton we give spinnaker classes a handicap boost of 20 points to allow them to compete on fair terms with the non spinnaker classes. |
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Campaign for longer weekends and therefore more sailing!
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Phil eltringham
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Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: England/Hitchin Online Status: Offline Posts: 1105 |
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Posted: 06 Apr 04 at 12:34pm |
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I guess it is something of a paradox, on one side you can de-restric the class almost completely that way there is more room to make large improvements, the problem with this is that you have the other side, if there is a constant stream of large improvements in performance then boats become obselete very quickly, and you end up needing a new boat more requently and no-one can sell the old ones because they are so far off the pace (the wonderfull world of chequebook sport). To allow boats to remain competative, you have to sacrifice some of the scope for development, to allow people to get the most out of ech boat.
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FLAT IS FAST!
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Steve G
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Joined: 17 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
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Posted: 06 Apr 04 at 12:08pm |
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I agree Lucy, for the record I love merlins and used to sail them twenty years ago in a wide superstition, I agree that it is the helm, and that Phil King or whoever else could prolly jump into an old Proctor MK10 or a winder box or a ghost rider any of them and after a morning on the beach with his tape measure, and still be top 10.
The point I was responding to is that the bare hull price is hardly any yardstick to completed boat price. The point being made by Javelin, and it is in my opinion a well grounded point , with no axe grinding, is that for ALL that development, the boats are still where they appear to have been on the water 5 years ago.and it would appear from the outside, that the new materials are being incoorporated into the design almost for the sake of it, without any real design benefit in mind. |
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Steve G
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Lucy
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Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 06 Apr 04 at 9:19am |
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I think at the end of the day we are trying to pick holes in a class that is extremely successful. Their annual 100 + turnout at Salcombe and good past champs attendance is down to not only a good boat that has progressed steadily to appeal to other class sailors, it is also down to the fact that the Merlin fleet are a really good bunch of people who are always keen to help. I used to sail one and admittedly I don't now because I have commitments elsewhere, but I know for a fact that I will always return to the fleet. That is where their strength lies - people want to go back for more! At the end of the day, Winder boats can produce a competitive Merlin and have in fact been mass producing the damn things for the past couple of years - for a good price! The Merlin is a better looking boat and more appealing to sailors than they used to be. They are also much easier to look after now too! If you have the money then you can opt to have a hand built custom Merlin - the ones who win and go fast are because the helms and crews are very good! not because of the amount of money they have thrown at it.... Some of these top 20 sailors have been doing the circuit for 20 years + so please don't expect to jump in one and win. And DON'T blame the boat for being old/ not expensive enough/ the wrong design!!! Stop trying to find floors because a fleet is not all about the boat, it is the kindness and atmosphere generated by the sailors too! |
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