Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Sunsail Court Case |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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very risky policy without very high quality rescue cover. Crew separated from boat: boat blown off downwind: deaths. Edited by JimC |
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ssailor ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 11 Oct 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 430 |
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"A catamaran dinghy is often more powerful and unpredictable than a
single-hulled craft" - I think they mean in a holiday sailing club kind
of context
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Any one in need of quality carbon fibre work (tillers etc) at decent prices!
Int 14 Gbr 1244 'Nucking Futs' The New Port rule!!. |
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49erGBR735HSC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 30 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1991 |
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Don't think strapping knifes to hire boats is a good idea due to the fact that young children may be left unsupervised with them. However, every instructor, rescue driver, etc, in my opinion should have to carry them as standard practise.
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Guest ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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They do have very high quality rescue cover and with the water at about 24 deg C and everyone in bouyancys aids it couldn't be much safer. This Sunsail thing is a tragic accident and I am sure we all feel for the families loss; but a full life is not without risk and I'd hate to see our sport legislated to a point where we are not able to enjoy sailing. regards, Rick |
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m_liddell ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 27 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 583 |
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I worked for sunsail for the season this happened and the following season (but at different clubs to where this happened) and don't really have a lot of good things to say about them. I also worked with the guy in charge of the beach at the incident and the guy who was first on the scene in a RIB the season following this incident. It badly affected each of them and both still had nightmares. Sailing policy did change dramatically after this tragedy, before the way things were run was an accident waiting to happen. Kids club staff without being even RYA lvl 2 were taking young kids out in F6 in hobie 15's regularly and a few did pitchpole them. Trapezing off the leeward side was frequent. There were no knives or any kind of first aid equipment in the safety boats either and mast floats were not fitted to most of the cats. Since then all the safety boats have 'crash kits' with wire cutters, breathing tube, first aid kit, etc. All (hobie) cats have mast floats and all sailing with kids is done with an instructor. Forms must be singed by parents stating which boats the kids are allowed to use in and out of kids club, this list is available to the beach staff. As for the knife issue, knives are supplied but so cheap they were close to useless. I always carried by own (RYA recommended) one on safety. Sunsail never has enough safety cover for the huge amounts of guests on the water and many of the RIBs are sometimes in very bad shape (cannot even get on the plane!). The RYA hate sunsail for this and other reasons. In one instance I couldn’t get to a capsized cat in time near a lee shore even though I’d seen the situation well before it happened. I just about managed to get the kids off before the cat got crushed to pieces on the rocks by the waves. With a RIB with a properly maintained engine or adequate amount of safety boats this would never have been such a close call. As for what actually happened, no one knows really. It has been discussed and debated amongst the staff at length. I sure trapezing off the leeward side caused on contributed to the capsize but as for the entrapment who knows. It's pretty scary seeing the name of someone that you worked with in print and convicted. I regularly was in charge of safety, it could easily have been me. I don't think any of the staff did anything wrong. Edited by m_liddell |
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Stefan Lloyd ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Thanks for the insight, and you are brave to put it in your own name on a public forum. Don't take the rest of what I'm about to say as personal; it is a general point I want to make. "the way things were run was an accident waiting to happen. Kids club staff without being even RYA lvl 2 were taking young kids out in F6 in hobie 15's regularly and a few did pitchpole them. Trapezing off the leeward side was frequent. There were no knives or any kind of first aid equipment in the safety boats either and mast floats were not fitted to most of the cats." "I regularly was in charge of safety, it could easily have been me. I don't think any of the staff did anything wrong." Anything strike you as inconsistent about those two statements? What did the staff do to get things changed? Ultimately, if you were in charge of safety and you couldn't get things changed, did you quit and say why, clearly and up the management line? Ultimately, sometimes doing that is part of what being a professional is about. I realise that Sunsail and similar companies pay not a lot of money to staff who are primarily there to enjoy a season by the water in the sun. They are obviously not the people who run the company. Nevertheless, it is easy to blame remote management, and it is equally easy for management to blame the staff on the ground. I suspect that if this had happened in the UK, both groups would have found themselves in court. |
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Shingle ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 11 Jul 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 111 |
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I think you'll find in the UK it is generally the Directors who end up in Court, unless gross negilgence can be proven on the member of staff involved. Even then they will cite that managerial systems should be in place to prevent misconduct. I think this is why becoming a flag officer of UK clubs is becoming a poison challace.
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Drink Feck girls!
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tack'ho ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1100 |
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Not quite that simple in my mind. Sunsail at the time and I suspect still do not have any form of Functional safety management. The clue to whose fault this is lies in the title. Unless a company adopts a proactive approach to ensuring it operates safely it will simple keep closing the door after the horse has bolted. I wonder how many sailing centres keep occurrance logs and do trend analysis to intercept accident chains before they occur? How many near misses occurred in the company prior to this incident. If Sunsails management team were on top of this they would have been able to spot potential problems coming by sharing data across thier centres. It is not the job of the beachfront staff to set policy. Once policy is in place they form the most inportant part of it's implemetation but to ask an young person with little experience in the field to formulate their own policy possible is frankly rissable and constitutes a shocking abdication of responsibilty. This doesn't absolve them of any moral responsibility but if following a few near misses sunsails management had issued instructions not to allowing trapezing off the leeward hull, etc etc, they would known the dangers and been able to do their best to mitgate them. Its a culture thing! |
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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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BOABS ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 17 Jan 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 40 |
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It is very disappointing to hear an ex employee talk about Sunsail in that way. I have taken my family on 6 or 7 Sunsail beach holidays and have been VERY happy with the staff, rescue service and generally the quality of the kit. However, I think I am happy because I have a good understanding of the risks involved. When my father was competing at International level, 35 years ago, he had a phrase 'Rescue boats can only rescue corpses', which whilst melodramatic and probably only aimed at me instilled a self preservation ethos. Sunsail and others need to take responsibility for letting youngsters out on kit and in conditions that they cannot handle. They also need to help people understand the risks. When our children's friends come to the sailing club for the day I don't care if they think i am controlling and sometimes spoil their fun, in loco parentis is a responsibility, especially when messing in water with children who have not been brought up growing gills!
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m_liddell ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 27 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 583 |
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I take your point. When I say "in change of safety" our role was to co-ordinate saftey via radio and conduct hull/board counts each hr. The staff and I repeatedly complained about the state of things to our manager but his hands were tied. He gets his budget and rules to run the centre from the head office and he did an excellent job given the limitations that were imposed on him, there was nothing he could do. As staff we did the best job we could. Quitting would require loss of a bonus in excess for £1000 (for full season staff) plus paying for a flight back the UK. When you are getting paid (we worked this out) £0.80/hr (excluding socialising), and are required to socialise each night with guests and buy drinks at UK prices, you are lucky to make it out with any money at all. Losing £1200 is not an attractive prospect if you are broke! There is a procedures manual but this only contains the 'sunsail way' of righting each of the dinghies, which of course had 2 people in the rib in each photograph. This was never the case since there were not enough staff. We each came up with our own methods to cope with this, hence the newspaper report saying the guy on safety who attended the capsize needed to radio for assistance. I should point out that the sitation is FAR better in low season since we actually have time to maintain the kit, safety boats, and have adaquate safety cover. High season is just chaos every day, how the guests do not see this I'll never know! Half the hobie cats had tape over holes in the hulls and sent out each day for months and just drained out each day. There was no time to do a repair. Edited by m_liddell |
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