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    Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by 7250

Originally posted by Guest#260

PS: I kind if think we have done this to death now as it's acedemic really as it's down to ISAF to deal with such issues .... the Finn is a fine boat as is the MPS. I am sure ISAF will make the right choices ... next topic?



You've had plenty to say on this forum about your favourite class, and that's fine. Nice to see your enthusiasm. But when you put it forward as an "obvious" replacement for the Finn in the Olympics then I would like to hear some substantive arguments and solid evidence to support it. And in engaging you on the subject, I really don't think you have any.

If instead you bring up points about the Finn that I don't think are true, then I am going to respond. If you've had enough then that's fine and I'll go back to just being a reader of this forum.

7250 - my view is that the Olympic Classes could do with a complete review; I don't have a downer on the Finn I didn't start this topic, just chipped in ... and I don't think I used the words you provided above in quotes but feel free to trawl through the history ...

If we were to review all the classes this is what I'd choose ...

Mens single - Laser
Womens single - Laser Radial (with carbon top mast to lower competitve weight)
Open single - MPS
Womens double - 29xx
Mens double - 49er
Multihull - Tornado Sport
Keelboat - Melges 24 (must have mixed crew and replaces Yngling & Star)
Match Race - Mixed Keelboat? (4 crew, 2 men 2 women))

Plus a couple of windsurfer events

This reduces the medals to 10 which I suspect may happen, re-introduces match racing which again I believe is on the agenda reading the latest Y&Y and increase the numbers of women.

Rick

 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:48pm
Just curious; when people from non-SMODs say things alike "there's almost certainly less variation in the gear used by top Finn sailors than in Laser masts or hulls produced by different regional manufacturers in that class", can you provide any proof of that?

I've heard how top Laser sailors measure 20000 masts to select the right one (but these are never first-hand accounts, and guys I know who were 3rd in the Open worlds didn't bother with that sort of stuff....); I also know of guys who walk in, grab the top set of gear off the shelf, and beat that year's world champ with it.

I was also talking yesterday to one of the biggest names in development dinghies and skiffs in the world, and he was saying how back in the pro days of the development class, every time you broke a mast you would have to re-tune the entire rig because these spare-no-expense non-SMOD spars were all different.

It was a decade or more ago, but it was interesting that those full-time fully pro fully televised campaigners couldn't get predictable spars from their custom builders. Is there any proof that SMOD gear has wider tolerances than non-SMOD gear?
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 7250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

PS: I kind if think we have done this to death now as it's acedemic really as it's down to ISAF to deal with such issues .... the Finn is a fine boat as is the MPS. I am sure ISAF will make the right choices ... next topic?



You've had plenty to say on this forum about your favourite class, and that's fine. Nice to see your enthusiasm. But when you put it forward as an "obvious" replacement for the Finn in the Olympics then I would like to hear some substantive arguments and solid evidence to support it. And in engaging you on the subject, I really don't think you have any.

If instead you bring up points about the Finn that I don't think are true, then I am going to respond. If you've had enough then that's fine and I'll go back to just being a reader of this forum.
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Posts: 228 		Post Options Post Options   Quote allanorton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by 7250

Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by 7250

Sorry Rick, but your implication that winning in the Finn is a function of ability to develop equipment is just totally wrong. There's almost certainly less variation in the gear used by top Finn sailors than in Laser masts or hulls produced by different regional manufacturers in that class.


Sorry but this is nonsense. The Laser sailors at the Olympics are PROVIDED with their kit. There is a massive difference in Finn gear (alllowed to compensate for different weights, conditions etc) and VERY small variations in laser kit. Read the quotes from Ben to that effect.



In fact all the Finns at Athens were built by Devoti, almost all the masts were by Wilke and almost all the sails by North with some by Victory. There would have been variations in mast bends and sail cut and cloth to suit sailor's weight and preferences, but you couldn't say there were massive differences in the equipment.

On top of all this, the Finn is a very physical boat which requires a bit of muscle & fitness, as well excellent tactics to get near the front.  This is what an olympic boat should be about.  Also the finn has good sized fleets world wide, where as "skiff" type boats have relatively small fleets.  I don't especially like Finns, I much prefer the look of the MPS, but I think the Finn offers the best "olympic" test.
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 7250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by rich96

Originally posted by 7250

Sorry Rick, but your implication that winning in the Finn is a function of ability to develop equipment is just totally wrong. There's almost certainly less variation in the gear used by top Finn sailors than in Laser masts or hulls produced by different regional manufacturers in that class.


Sorry but this is nonsense. The Laser sailors at the Olympics are PROVIDED with their kit. There is a massive difference in Finn gear (alllowed to compensate for different weights, conditions etc) and VERY small variations in laser kit. Read the quotes from Ben to that effect.



In fact all the Finns at Athens were built by Devoti, almost all the masts were by Wilke and almost all the sails by North with some by Victory. There would have been variations in mast bends and sail cut and cloth to suit sailor's weight and preferences, but you couldn't say there were massive differences in the equipment.

Edited by 7250
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:23pm

Originally posted by 7250

Rick, you did say "the sailors ability to sail the boat rather than the sailors ability to develop the equipment", and so that is clearly your implication.

Making sure you have a mast and sail that match and suit your weight is not a development programme, its just good sailing. (Inability to do so is the reason that all Olympic Laser sailors fall in such a narrow weight range.)

I could go tomorrow and buy the exactly same specification Finn hull, mast and sail from the same manufacturer that any of the top guys use. I wouldn't know the exact mast bend numbers each has (and its not the same for everyone either) but I'd definitely be in the same range.

Dean Barker made just this point when he re-entered the class before the last Olympics. And I think Ben Ainslie won his first Gold Cup after only 6 months in the class, and I saw that he won his fourth with only a week or so back in the boat from his AC commitments. Hardly time for a major development programme.

So you are saying that Ben just went and selected the appropriate sail, mast and hull off the shelf and went sailing ... yeah right ...

All his stuff was custom developed for him; and a fine job they did.

That is why his mast was advertised after the games for €5,000. I don't supposed that would have been realistic if the mast had been standard; do you?

Rick

PS: I kind if think we have done this to death now as it's acedemic really as it's down to ISAF to deal with such issues .... the Finn is a fine boat as is the MPS. I am sure ISAF will make the right choices ... next topic?



Edited by Guest#260
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:15pm

Rick: so your argument is that the members in the MPS class, who have chosen to sail a SMOD, could agree to instead adopt multiple sailmakers (and presumably spar-makers to match the sails), so  that the MPS might conceivably be adopted as an open Olympic class. Presumably Victor Boats, your client, would also have to agree.

Aren't there rather a lot of "ifs" in this chain of events?
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Posts: 13 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 7250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:14pm
Rick, you did say "the sailors ability to sail the boat rather than the sailors ability to develop the equipment", and so that is clearly your implication.

Making sure you have a mast and sail that match and suit your weight is not a development programme, its just good sailing. (Inability to do so is the reason that all Olympic Laser sailors fall in such a narrow weight range.)

I could go tomorrow and buy the exactly same specification Finn hull, mast and sail from the same manufacturer that any of the top guys use. I wouldn't know the exact mast bend numbers each has (and its not the same for everyone either) but I'd definitely be in the same range.

Dean Barker made just this point when he re-entered the class before the last Olympics. And I think Ben Ainslie won his first Gold Cup after only 6 months in the class, and I saw that he won his fourth (in a supplied boat) with only a week or so back in the boat from his AC commitments. Hardly time for a major development programme. I'd probably attribute his success to sailing ability instead.

Anyway, this is getting off the point. This is not a discussion about whether only SMOD should be used in the Olympics. Do you have any arguments to address the points I raise above, the real fundamental issues?

Edited by 7250
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Posts: 596 		Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 12:11pm

Originally posted by 7250

Sorry Rick, but your implication that winning in the Finn is a function of ability to develop equipment is just totally wrong. There's almost certainly less variation in the gear used by top Finn sailors than in Laser masts or hulls produced by different regional manufacturers in that class.

Sorry but this is nonsense. The Laser sailors at the Olympics are PROVIDED with their kit. There is a massive difference in Finn gear (alllowed to compensate for different weights, conditions etc) and VERY small variations in laser kit. Read the quotes from Ben to that effect.
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 06 at 11:47am

Originally posted by 7250

Sorry Rick, but your implication that winning in the Finn is a function of ability to develop equipment is just totally wrong. There's almost certainly less variation in the gear used by top Finn sailors than in Laser masts or hulls produced by different regional manufacturers in that class.

I am not saying that, please read the posts ... I am saying that is PART of the challenge that is NOT part of sailing a Laser.

You can't have a sail development programme with North to develop a new cut Laser sail can you ... or a programme to develop different mast bend characteristics or a slightly different hull moldings ... all things that I am sure Ben did in his pursuit of gold whilst Goodison just went sailling.

Rick
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