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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Olympic Classes
    Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 2:25pm

"Scope for development" but I suspect not a "development class". It is many years since there was an Olympic development class. The problem is the budget. I'd be amazed if the Moth was selected. And I believe that strictly speaking, the Canoe is a canoe, not a sailboat, which might make things ticklish for the ISAF.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 2:05pm
Its all a bit academic really.  The criteria for the 2008 open single hander includes 'scope for development'.  No SMOD can achieve this.  I'm not passing judgement on whether the criteria are right, but you've got to play the game to the rules.  If one assumes that the chosen class must have international status, then only the Moth, Int Canoe, A Class and Finn meet the criteria.  You could argue that the Finn isn't very fast and the A Class isn't (particually) athletic, leaving just the Moth or Canoe.  I don't think either would increase participation, or is any truer a test of ability, but I didn't make the rules up...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote allanorton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

If we can compare the 49er with the FD I believe the 49er is better for the cameras and a test truer to the Olympic ideal

I don't totally agree, the average joe doesn't have a clue what's going on after the start and boats start zigzaging in different directions, if he manages to see them round the windward mark, he's then going to see them start zigzaging downwind.  The public like to know who's winning and see the overtaking happening, they're used to watching things going round tracks/circuits where this is easy.  Any assymetric boat will overcomplicate viewing for the general public, symetric spinaker boats & boats without spinakers make racing easier to follow.

I like the 49er, I think for sailors it does make for more intersting viewing, though by 2012 it will no doubt look a bit dated.  As for the olympic ideal, I think that boats are needed which encourage decent sized fleets (50+) not 19.



Edited by allanorton
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 1:40pm

Originally posted by Skiffman

Personally I think the MPS should replace the Finn in the Olympics

So how many countries have fleets?  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 1:36pm

Originally posted by 7250

At Athens, for example; 49er - 19 boats. 470 men - 27 boats. .

Actually if you consider that 202 countries were represented at the Athens Olympics, both those numbers are pitifully small.

I've no doubt that for sailing, being part of the Olympics is a positive thing. For a class however, it is often bad news. The Europe was doing very nicely thank you as an International youth and womens' class until it was picked up by the Olympics and dumped again a few years later. In the meantime, most of those sailing at a sub-Olympic level moved to other classes and they aren't coming back.

So if you think your class ought to be Olympic, be careful what you wish for, in case you get it.

 

 



Edited by Stefan Lloyd
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Skiffman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 1:04pm

I agree totally with Stephan, how can you say that Sailing should not be in the Olympics?! Every class of boat in england even if it is not an Olympic Class will have had some benefit from sailing being the Olympics. Sailing would not be any where near as big as it is today without the Olympics nor would we have so much funding and opportunity availble and coaching available. The RYA do not force kids or people to sail Olympic Classes but simply say that if you want to go to the Olympics this is what you need to do to get our support. The RYA's money comes from Sport England and the RYA can not simply give this money to any class of boat it has been alocated and they only get because of the Olympics.

Personally I think the MPS should replace the Finn in the Olympics in terms of attracting more veiwers of maybe even the Moth. The Finn is a great boat with really tight racing and it is also demanding to sail, but show any non-sailor video footage of a Finn in 15knots and a MPS and all of them will say the MPS looks cool and more exciting. If you know a lot about sailing then watching Finn's sail is really good because you can understand it but not to the general non-sailor.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 7250 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 11:22am
I don't think the Laser is a precedent for a boat like the MPS. The Laser is totally unique in the history of dinghy sailing. 180,000 boats compared with a couple of hundred at most. Dead simple and low tech compared with a carbon fibre skiff.

For accessibility the 49er is a far better precedent for the MPS. Now the standard equipment in the 49er has definitely not made it more accessible to poorer countries. It is actually far less so, sailed in far fewer "poorer" nations, than the other double handed Olympic boat, the 470. At Athens, for example; 49er - 19 boats. 470 men - 27 boats.

Next, you don't need a mast development programme to win in the Finn. Not only is top Finn gear bought straight off the shelf, in the same way you would buy a SMOD, but people have gone to the Olympics with the cast-off masts and boats of others, and beaten them with it.

+++ Sorry for the edit, but the post was un-necessarily strong for such a polite discussion. +++

Edited by 7250
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tornado_ALIVE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 11:13am
Originally posted by dinghysolutions

Sailing would be better off not being in the olympics at all. This would mean that people will sail boats that they actually like  and some of these old classes would not be around any more..

  To decide class's and race foremate  just to suit TV makes the olympics a waist of time as you dont get all the best sailors in the world sailing the best boats in the world. And example of this could be one 470 world title the top 10 were full of 7 New Zealanders but only one went.So the silver and Bronze winners at those olympics where not really the best in the world.

 Worlds Titles have more recogition than Olympics. Sailing would be better off not in the olympics at all!

Firstly, to make the Olympics you have to be the top team for your country over the Qualifing period ( up to 4 years).....  That is a measure of consistancy, not a potential one off brilliance if you win a Worlds.  Then you will race against the best of other countries that are consistantly good performers and not one shot specials.  This will be 4 years of dedication, putting your carrier, relationships, life on hold for this one in 4 year event.

There is no doupting the importance of an Olympic Campaign.

The Olympics also gives sailing that little bit more exposure to the general public which can not be a bad thing.

National Bodies both sporting and government give $$$$ for Olympic success.  If sailing is not in the Olympics, then these $$$$ go to another sport.

These $$$$ goes into facilities, assisting in financing the running of our National and state yachting bodies, research and develpment in boats, sails, rigs, hardware, systems, sailing techneques at a FULLY PROFESIONAL level.  This in turn trickles down to non Olympic classes and sailors benifiting the whole sport.

Those who are closed minded will not see how important and how much to offer, Olympic competition is to the general yachting comunity.

Originally posted by dinghysolutions

Sailing would be better off not being in the olympics at all.

It absolutley $hits me to tears every time I here this comment and makes me realise how ill informed, closed minded and just plain greedy some people are.

I say greedy because those who make this comment only care about how it directly effects THEM in the imediate short term and is not appreciative of the long term direct and indirect gains our sport gets from an Olympic Games.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 10:58am

Originally posted by 7250

Rick posted:

I have two questions.

1. In what way is the MPS a better test of the singlehanded sailor than the Finn?

2. Why would the viewing figures for Olympic sailing significantly improve if the MPS replaced the Finn?

A1. I don't think it is a better test just a different test. However as it is standard equipment the equipment factor is removed - you don't need to spend thoustands developing the perfect mast making the class more accessable to poorer nations. Just look at the entry list of the Laser and the Finn at Athens

A2. This is a matter of taste; to the purist watching Finns is fine; I enjoyed watching the Finn coverage at Athens but for the general public I believe the 49er type of boat is more appealling. They go faster and somtimes tip over; they also charge at each other downwind and they are more colourful ...

Rick

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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 06 at 10:53am

If you look at the criteria for the various categories, and apply them rigidly, there's no way the MPS could possibly replace the Finn. Go read the criteria, then come back and name a single SMOD that fits the bill.

As for the political element, Paul Henderson ( FD sailor) was President of ISAF when the FD was dropped. Didn't help much did it? Personally I think being dropped from the 5-ring circus was the best thing that could have happened to the FD class, and any "open" class that is newly selected will encounter exactly the same problems - and benefits - that the FD did.

Problems:-

Arms race over gear, perception that unlimited funds are necessary to win, and the idea that the boat is not for mere mortals, just to name a few!

Benefits:-

Top sailors come into the class, RYA support (if that really is a benefit!), ready-made international regatta circuit, and a steady flow of good second-hand gear from the Olympic gods to help the poor of the parish

I agree with 7250 in the main. The choice of boat will make very little difference to the viewing figures. Viewing figures for sailing in the UK were good because we were in the hunt for lots of medals. If the situation is different next time (God forbid!), no-one will bother except sailors. How many of us had ever watched curling before 2002?

The 49er is a great boat, but a better boat than the FD? Better for what? If you were standing on the shore looking at 25 knot breeze and 4m waves, which would you pick to go racing? None of this is anything to do with the boats, it's more to do with the current obsession with the word "modern". Next thing we'll see will be compulsory pit-stops and shoe-changes every 4 laps in the 10,000 metres! No? Wait till a TV executive suggests it, then see how quick it happens. The only sport I have experience of at that level, fencing, has been completely ruined - sorry, "modernised" - by the pressure of making it more telegenic to keep Olympic status. Dinghysolutions is probably right in the end.

Neil

 

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