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JimC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Bumble

I think the proposal is unworkable for the same reasons SMOD's are popular.


However its been brilliantly successful for the F18 Cats... The trick will be to learn what's good about that rule set and why its worked. The F18s seem to combine some of the advantages of a SMOD and some of those of a development class for their owners...

Originally posted by Chew my RS

so maybe reduce the kite a little (17 seems quite big for a hiker?) and limit beam to 2m.


59er kite is 23m2! It would be nice to have that boat in the rule really, but I think that kite is too big. Apart from anything else its a lot of rag to hoist and drop when you get to my age... Bethwaite has a design principle that the boat should be powered up rather than soaking downwind, but I think the price of only being able to do W/L courses is too much.

The 400 kite on the other hand is far too small. I know, I crew them regularly, and spend far too much time sitting down in the leeside. 59er owners could always buy a smaller kite, and RS might not be adverse to flogging 400 sailors bigger ones, perhaps with matching masts...

Originally posted by Chew my RS

Interestingly some of the Aussie classes set the kite limit by perimeter, not area. Not sure why, except it is easier to measure.


One of the other advantages of perimeter measurement is that its easier to cut sails to measure too. There's a lot to be said for simple rules.

Edited by JimC
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Bumble View Drop Down
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Posts: 302 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 4:22pm

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

History shows you need a very well written rule to stop a development class becoming extreme.
Quite so, and further...... history has shown that a broadly written rule gives the class longevity. Too much restriction and the wish to protect current owners boat price/interests will prevent sufficient development to prevent premature ageing of design.

I think the proposal is unworkable for the same reasons SMOD's are popular.
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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Posts: 790 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chew my RS

Personally I'd rather see RS200 and RS400 derived classes (no trapezes)...



Howsabout

Maximum Length 4.6m (maybe require a raked bow?)
Maximum Beam 2.1m
Minimum Weight 73kg
Main and Jib 14m2
Gennaker Area 17m2

Yeah, about that - wouldn't want to outlaw the 400 though (or make it too much of the pace), so maybe reduce the kite a little (17 seems quite big for a hiker?) and limit beam to 2m.   Interestingly some of the Aussie classes set the kite limit by perimeter, not area.  Not sure why, except it is easier to measure.
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Posts: 790 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by m_liddell

I can see what you are trying to do here but I have always thought the majority of people into dev classes want to be extreme. They don't want a boat that is the detuned "street legal" version they full on holding nothing back rocket ship

I don't agree.  Moths and 14s might be like that but they are small classes.  The popular ones like the Merlins are not extreme (except in price).  Anyway, to some extent I see this appealing more to existing SMOD owners than development class owners.  People who like buying their boats without spending effort sourcing sailmakers/spar makers/foil makers but still want something fairly leading edge.  Perhaps the kind of person who bought an RS400 in the mid 90s, because it was bang up to date at the time, but has now drifted back to the Merlin/Fireball because they have advanced whilst the 400 is stuck in time.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by Chew my RS

Personally I'd rather see RS200 and RS400 derived classes (no trapezes)...



Howsabout

Maximum Length 4.6m (maybe require a raked bow?)
Maximum Beam 2.1m
Minimum Weight 73kg
Main and Jib 14m2
Gennaker Area 17m2



Edited by JimC
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Posts: 583 		Post Options Post Options   Quote m_liddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 3:10pm

I can see what you are trying to do here but I have always thought the majority of people into dev classes want to be extreme. They don't want a boat that is the detuned "street legal" version, they want the full on holding nothing back rocket ship



Edited by m_liddell
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ginger_69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 3:05pm

well she isnt the best in light wind but is bloody good fun in anything above a f4, and i think the main isnt much smaller than cheese b4 bedtime's 97 rules one and the kite is 13-14 sqm. but will (cherub chairman) gave it a handicap of 1150

 
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Posts: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Pabs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 2:50pm

Chew my RS wrote:

Stefan Lloyd wrote:
History shows you need a very well written rule to stop a development class becoming extreme.

True, and therein lies the difficulty (but not impossibility).  The difference is that the Cherub is conceived as an extreme boat (twin trap, BIG kite, carbon hulls etc), my idea was for a more managable concept. 

well i duno if u have see it at chew but their is a cherub as ur drive in on the left in yellow one that says whaam down the side, she doesnt have a huge kite and doesnt have twin wire and also is very managable!!

 

Thats true but wham is a cherub which is out of date. I belive it is pre 97 rules boat so a small kite, small main and jib and no snout. this boat is also wood so would hazard a guess at it bing over weight and does not have a carbon rig so would be sailing no where near the class handicap and would cost a fortune to ungrade to the current rules cant see the point
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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Posts: 790 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 2:44pm

For an ISO/L4000 style class (i.e. single trapeze, gennaker), those figures look about right.  The ethos should be to retain the SMOD-style simplicity and ease of sailing (hence the raked bow?), whilst allowing the different manufacturers to put their own slant on things.

Personally I'd rather see RS200 and RS400 derived classes (no trapezes)...
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ginger_69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 06 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by Chew my RS

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

History shows you need a very well written rule to stop a development class becoming extreme.

True, and therein lies the difficulty (but not impossibility).  The difference is that the Cherub is conceived as an extreme boat (twin trap, BIG kite, carbon hulls etc), my idea was for a more managable concept. 

well i duno if u have see it at chew but their is a cherub as ur drive in on the left in yellow one that says whaam down the side, she doesnt have a huge kite and doesnt have twin wire and also is very managable!!
Chew valley lake s c
Topper(RED)-29412
I14 1209
lightning-168
Whaam (cherub)
Atum bom (cherub)old crew (the 1 in the youtube vids)
Will be arup skiff crew aka marmite
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