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Bumble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RS Boats
    Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 4:38pm
Sorry chaps/ladies..... that was a bit SMOD vs. Development wasn't it. You may all smack my botty.
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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 4:55pm
How do the 9ers get away with using a compression vang then?  Genuine question, not being sarky!
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Bumble

I ask the question, would there be any more sailors racing now had there never been any RS boats? The answer is a definate no, they are 'for those who can sail' classes. That being the case, obviously sailors who sail them would have otherwise been in other existing classes (you might say traditional classes).


Actually when I did some adding up of the Y&Y numbers who've been attending Champs over the last ten years in another thread it looked as if the reason that we have more people attending Champs now than ten years ago is not because the entries for different classes have got bigger - they haven't - but because there are now more active classes. Rather to my surprise (and contrary to my prejudices) that suggests that the SMOD revolution has in fact grown the sport.

When you think about it there are two ways for numbers to increase. One is for more people to start sailing, and the other is for people to say actively sailing for longer. To take your point on "'for those who can sail' classes", they need not just take numbers from people who otherwise would sail other classes, but also take numbers from people who would otherwise have given up sailing.

Take me, I've given up two handed boats because there is no longer a two handed boat I want to sail at a reasonable level. OK, I'm sailing a singlehander, but I'm a p**sp**r helm and probably won't bother to do a Championships in it. Now if there suddenly appeared on the market a two hander that I wanted to sail seriously, I'd probably buy one and the market for two handers would have increased by one boat.

So would there be any fewer sailors racing now if there had never been any RS Classes? I think the answer is a probable "yes, there would have been fewer active sailors".

Edited by JimC
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Offshoretiger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Offshoretiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Bumble

Bill Gates may not be the Devil, but he certainly represents the corporate face of relentless greed by the use of the patent laws. This is the very issue with which the inclusion of well run, business orientated corporations to the dinghy market causes concern.

I quiet like the RS/Microsoft comparisons. Both companys are very good at what they do and both sets of customers inslude groups who can see weaknesses in the one size fits all approach.

I think RS probably have done a lot of good for UK sailing, they produce some relativley cheap, resonably high performance boats that have a fairly broad range of appeal. At the same time they will never really appeal to the type of sailors who enjoy playing with tuning and systems and ideas almost as much as they enjoy sailing. I gess the main concern of the sailors in these classes is that the bigger the RS range gets, the fewer opportunitys there will be to play with non-RS toys. A few classes will have a high enough existing profile to be reasonable accessable (kind of like Apple) while the rest will get to a point where you only know about them if you are very intrested/lucky/geeky (like Linux)

So how you feel overall about RS probably depends which of those groups the classes you sail fall into.....

...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......
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phantom_iv View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote phantom_iv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 06 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Offshoretiger

I quiet like the RS/Microsoft comparisons. Both companys are very good at what they do and both sets of customers inslude groups who can see weaknesses in the one size fits all approach.

I think RS probably have done a lot of good for UK sailing, they produce some relativley cheap, resonably high performance boats that have a fairly broad range of appeal. At the same time they will never really appeal to the type of sailors who enjoy playing with tuning and systems and ideas almost as much as they enjoy sailing. I gess the main concern of the sailors in these classes is that the bigger the RS range gets, the fewer opportunitys there will be to play with non-RS toys. A few classes will have a high enough existing profile to be reasonable accessable (kind of like Apple) while the rest will get to a point where you only know about them if you are very intrested/lucky/geeky (like Linux)


Much as I like the idea of a comparison, I can't accept RS==MS. I'd be tempted to nominate Laser for that role, with the majority of their income coming from one very successful, almost ubiquitous product (cf Office), thier dumbing down of good ideas (Laser 2/3000?) e.t.c.

RS I feel have more of a dedication to produce very good products, unlike a certain software giant's contiunal, ruthless persuit of a quick buck.

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Bumble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 5:35am
Originally posted by Bumble

....... but they (Laser) have the audacity to patent it as the Gnav as if they thought of it..

I would like to retract that comment, as I have no evidence to back it up. A quick search has shown a number of uses for the word gnav, and beside from being unable to patent a generic word, there is also nothing to point to laser's use as I stated. I appologise if I a wrong for smearing the Laser centre, unreservedly.

I do, naturally stand by my original post on all other grounds, gawping and the way SMOD's steal developments given to the world for free. On this basis, I think RS et al have great comparisons with Bill Gates and Microsoft.

While nobody can deny microsoft have changed computing, for better or otherwise, their products are using technologies they did not invent, marketed and aimed to deny anyother manufacturers from making the same product with the same use. As I am using this microsoft product to moan to you all, you all endorse the same product by reading it. The more of you race RS boats, the more of you will benifit from buying their products.

Further, RS have been defended for the great after sales service they offer, but this is also a great parellel with Microsoft. The investment in after sales is a way of ensuring people stay with the product, endorsing it further and maintaining market share. The dinghy world, like the computer world, will benifit from as much variety, and competition as the manufacturers can muster....... its a sad reflection that in the fast moving world of PCs that is no longer an option.

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 7:29am

Originally posted by JimC

Actually when I did some adding up of the Y&Y numbers who've been attending Champs over the last ten years in another thread it looked as if the reason that we have more people attending Champs now than ten years ago is not because the entries for different classes have got bigger - they haven't - but because there are now more active classes. Rather to my surprise (and contrary to my prejudices) that suggests that the SMOD revolution has in fact grown the sport.

Or that a higher proportion of sailors are going to Nationals, which is I suspect more likely. Or that an increasing number of sailors go to multiple championships, which a fair number now do.

If the sport had grown, clubs ought to have more members. I've never seen any UK consolidated figures on sailing club memberships but most clubs I know of complain of declining membership (and yes, I know Chew has a waiting list: exception not rule). 

The report McKinsey produced for the RYA a few years ago concluded that sailing participation was in marked decline. How precisely they came to that conclusion I cannot remember and the report no longer seems to be available. However McKinsey tend to get their numbers right.

So I suspect your prejudices were right all along.

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Bumble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bumble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

If the sport had grown, clubs ought to have more members. I've never seen any UK consolidated figures on sailing club memberships but most clubs I know of complain of declining membership (and yes, I know Chew has a waiting list: exception not rule). 

In my area (the north) I feel things are slightly (very slightly) on the up in terms of members numbers. Its worth noting clubs will always complain of no numbers till they have a waiting list. This upness is only after such a massive decline though, that some clubs nearly or actually folded. We are yet to be in postion of refering to dinghy and small keelboat sailing as healthy.

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Living in a box View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Living in a box Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

(and yes, I know Chew has a waiting list: exception not rule). 



Just don't get that one... I've found the "other club" to offer superior sailing conditions, and a more friendly reception. (My opinion might not reflect general consensus )
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Jack Sparrow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 06 at 1:36pm
And there was I thinking you were in Taiwan!?


Originally posted by Bumble

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd


If the sport had grown, clubs ought to have more members. I've never
seen any UK consolidated figures on sailing club memberships but most
clubs I know of complain of declining membership (and yes, I know Chew
has a waiting list: exception not rule). 


In my area (the north) I feel things are slightly (very slightly) on the up
in terms of members numbers. Its worth noting clubs will always
complain of no numbers till they have a waiting list. This upness is only
after such a massive decline though, that some clubs nearly or actually
folded. We are yet to be in postion of refering to dinghy and small
keelboat sailing as healthy.



Edited by Jack Sparrow
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