Fastest dinghy?

depends what cat and what dinghy. Pico vs Tornado, 18 foot skiff vs hobie dragoon.

<>

Re "Whilst the 18 foot skiffs are going faster these days, the Tornado is going MUCH faster."

That's great - BUT CAN SOMEONE TELL THE TORNADO SAILORS TO AGITATE FOR A NEW YARDSTICK!

They keep on saying "we're going soooo much faster" and then they keep sailing on a yardstick that's just 4.5% faster than the old rig. Can we get it worked out one way or the other? Either they are so much faster (in which case the yardstick should be changed) or they are not.

It's not just Tornadoes that are doing this. The F16 guys do the same thing. As do the Moths. They keep on telling us Canoe sailors how fast they are, then they get a 15% lower yardstick.

(Yeah, I know the Tornado association doesn't set the yardstick and B & F don't worry about yardstick racing. It just seems that the kite cats are getting it both ways at the moment. Don't they feel embarrassed, I mean by their own terms they are getting an unfair advantage?).

<>Re "One must also be careful to compare apples with apples in such on-going debates. I read that in Australia a Taipan 4.9 and F-18 give the current Tornado National Champion a run for his money around the course. That is true, but with no discredit to his National title, Bundy and I were beating the same Tornado by a full 1.2Nm leg at the prior National Championship. We have not sailed in Australia on a Tornado for the past 2 years so it was not us who was being given a run from the others.!!"

Sure, but was it ever implied that it was B & F that were being spoken about as the T sailors? Of course not, you don't call world champs "national champs" (2) the reference was always about giving the T a run for its money ON YARDSTICK  (3) Sure, B & F kill that Tornado; the top Taipan will kill the Taipan I was using as comparison, as well.

Re "The San Fran Bridge to Bridge would be a good race between a sailboard, an 18 foot skiff and a Tornado - but only because it is one way. If it was there and back, the cat would win by half an hour or more."

Sure, no problems - but upwind and downwind racing was not the point of the original post. Dash speed was.

Interestingly, Forbesey has said that the 18 would be killed downwind, now he says that the B to B would be "a good race". Which is true - would the 18 be killed or would it be a good race? I'm not pretending I know, but there are mixed messages here.

<>"Around the bouys or on an even upwind/downwind/reaching track an off-the-beach catamaran is still the best boat to sail. End of story. No more
questions asked."

OK, some people find them the best to sail. Some of us don't. I find cats quite boring in most conditions, quite frankly. We've improved since finishing about 1/3rd of the way back in the Taipan nationals (my first year in cats) so we're not complete idiots, just average cat sailors. I mention that just to stop anyone saying "well, you just don't know how to sail a cat well". I've also had a run on Forbes' boat (back in his days with Mitch) so I have had a brief experience of Tornadoing. I'm also considering getting a Tornado (for family reasons) so I'm not biased against them. My family is largely a cat family so I'm not biased by upbringing.

But I don't like cats. I don't like the heavy rudders (compared to a good dinghy). I don't like the slow tacking (and that's comparing mono tacks to the world A Class champ's tacks), I don't like the fact that they are so stable; it feels more like a fast car than a motorbike. I don't like the heavy sheet loads. I don't like having my feet on the same level as my body when I'm on the tramp. I don't like the manouvre of tacking a cat; I really miss that lovely liquid flow you get when tacking something like a Laser, or the challenge of tacking something like a Canoe. I don't like the very open racing (and the cats I sail are fairly close-racing for cats - but the fleet is wide open compared to Lasers or something). I don't like the feel downwind in a breeze, or in the light. They are fast, but to me they are not sensitive because they react comparatively slowly to the helm and very slowly in terms of heel. I don't like the way the hull doesn't turn in response to heel very much at all. I don't like the really big close fleets.

That doesn't mean people who love cats are idiots, or ignorant. It just means they like different things. It's like the fact that some people like fast cars, others like fast motorbikes, and still others like slower dirtbikes while yet another group likes road pushbikes and another group likes racing off-road buggies and another bunch of people like MTBs or BMX..

I can really understand why some cat sailors are fully into cats. That doesn't mean that they are the only ones who have the right view on sailing. It's just their own taste.

The curious thing is that few cat sailors can sail a mono well. Yet they abuse dinghy sailors for not wanting to try new things!

As someone who sails cats, tris, proas (soon), longboards, shortboards, dinghies, skiffs (sometimes) sailing canoes, inshore yachts and offshore yachts (which I think covers every sort of sailboat) I have to say that stuff like this below REALLY hurts cat sailing. It gets other sailors' backs right up, and gives them a very negative view of cat sailing and cat sailors.

 Interestingly, the only other person I know who has sailed all those boats (actually, he has already sailed the proa) feels the same way - the only boats he doesn't like are those where the people who sail them believe that they are the chosen ones and everyone else is a fool or blind.

"It was just a shame (an ignorant shame though) that the initial question asked was "what is the best/fastest dinghy that I should buy?". Hopefully some education to the person who asked the question may sway them into buy a "fun" boat (a catamaran)."

Forbesy has said similar things in letters to the editor, and it gets plenty of people feeling very anti-cat.

Firstly, he thinks that anyone who does not share his taste in boats is ignorant. Secondly, he assumes that any education will turn people to cats. Thirdly, he assumes that cats are "fun" boats and by implication, other boats are not.

OK, I'll look at people I know. I know a guy who has designed cats, who lived aboard one, who has built 58' of cats, and was a top 5 ranked Tornado sailor nationally with a very old boat. Yet he doesn't like racing small cats. For several reasons, it does not do it for him.

I know another guy who grew up sailing cats, finished (IIRC) 2nd in the Tornado nationals (perhaps behind Forbes and and Booth when they were sailing together) and now sails skiffs. Is he "ignorant" of cats? Is he "uneducated" about cats? Does he sail skiffs because they are not fun? Not likely!

I know another sailor (let's call him C.N. ) who finished 3rd (or 4th) in that same nats. 4th (or 3rd) was a world champ and Olympic medallist in Ts. Yet C.N. prefers to sail 505s and skiffs. Yes, he has tried cats. Yes, he did very well in a short campaign. So he is not ignorant or uneducated. Yet he prefers 505s (most of all).

Ok, so cats are faster than dinghies. Who cares? Not everyone. Sailboards have higher top speeds than cats as well, but that doesn't mean that cat sailors are ignorant or uneducated (although surprisingly few cat sailors I know have tried boards, and with two exceptions none of those who have are any good).

Sorry for going off, this sort of stuff really gets me.

Originally posted by Chris 249 <> "It was just a shame (an ignorant shame though) that the initial question asked was "what is the best/fastest dinghy that I should buy?". Hopefully some education to the person who asked the question may sway them into buy a "fun" boat (a catamaran)." Forbesy has said similar things in letters to the editor, and it gets plenty of people feeling very anti-cat. Firstly, he thinks that anyone who does not share his taste in boats is ignorant. Secondly, he assumes that any education will turn people to cats. Thirdly, he assumes that cats are "fun" boats and by implication, other boats are not.

Hi Chris,

Not every cat sailor feels this way.....  I grew up in monos and have spent more years sailing them than cats.  Whilst I love the Tornado, I still love jumping back onto monos such as lasers, MGs and skiffs.

The fact is that monos do give multies a run.  An MG will give a Mari a good run.  A smaller skiff will give a taipan a good run and an 18 will give an F18 and Tornado a good run.

I have raced many boats from Lasers, 125s, 12, 15, 16 18 skiffs to Mari Cats and Tornadoes.......  Not to mention Keel Boats.

I had a ball on all these boats and even the slowest of these can be a blast in fresh conditions.  I think it is important to get out and try as many different classes as possible.  Not only do I feel it improves your sailing and awareness of other boats, but you will enjoy your sailing allot more.  After all we all sail for the enjoyment off it.  Even the most profesional sailor.

My weopen of choice was a Tornado, until I sold it 2 weeks ago and may well be the next boat I buy.  But it could quiet easily be a skiff or smaller mono.  Or may be a mono and a cat.

Re "I expect Chris 249 hasn't sailed a high performance cat reading some of his comments , He should try the gust response of a H5.9sx , A class (and many others ) if he thinks cats don't heel quick !, take the helm of a classic tornado or an A class if he wants the finger tip rudder feel ."

Well, the 16' cat I sail is basically developed from As (Auscat Mk 4 IIRC). It has a yardstick of 72, A class is 70 and is 2' longer so the boat I sail is perhaps FASTER for length than an A. We get beaten by the best A in our club, but we can put up a fight in a breeze AND he was world champ last season.

Tornado classic is 99, so it's only about 3% faster for 4' of LOA and about 3' more beam.

On Texel, our boat is 107 without kite, the Hurricane 5.9 Sport os 102 without kite, so ours is 5% quicker for about 18% more length.

Our boat (Taipan 4.9) is 104 kg fully rigged (ie something like 30 kg lighter than the UK equivalent, the Spitfire) and has a 28' high wing mast. Put it this way, the current world A class champ says it's FASTER than an A in very light winds and gets out of control earlier than the A.. He is a Taipan champ and world F 18 champ as well, so I'll believe him, thanks!

So if you look at all those figures, it's looks very much as if our boat is proportionately FASTER than the Tornado, Hurricane and probably the A. It seems to me that I have in fact sailed a performance cat!

I have not sailed a modern A because althoough I've been offered a ride on the  boat that won the world's last year, I have not wanted to take it out in a big breeze. I think we use the same rudder blades as the 10 year old As, so we're not too far out of date on rudder feel.

The comment that Tornadoes are heavier on the helm than many dinghies is echoed by guys who got 2nd, 3rd, 5th in the Tornado nationals. Among cat sailors, the boat I sail (Taipan 4.9) is reputed to have a light helm, yet I cannot just steer the boat by sitting the ball on tne end of the tiller on top of the gap between my thumb and forefinger ....that's not grasping or gripping it, just resting it on top. I can steer some monos (Canoe, Tasar) that way.

I'm a bit nonplussed as to how a pair of relatively large blades on a cat moving at say 10 knots, could NOT be significantly heavier than the smaller and well balanced rudder blade on my Tasar at about 7 knots, or the tiny and beautifully balanced (hydrodynamically) rudder on my Internaitonal Canoe. And when it comes to using the rudder through the turns, I'd much rather slide the flat Canoe hull or the short Tasar hull than crab the deep, skinny cats hulls around.

The cat heel stuff is hydrodynamic fact. I can, if I feel like it, stay out on trap in dead light winds and the boat stays upright. So can the A class champs.

Try doing that in a dinghy! Even a Laser heels so quickly that just hiking out in a calm will capsize you straight away. Don't even think about it in a Canoe!

Do that simple test (or just put a rigged performance cat in the water and watch it sit there, then put a rigged skiff or canoe in and watch is capsize straight away). Cats ARE more stable. Check the C of G and metacentric height. It's a fact. A cat sits there and waits for you, a mono doesn't.

<>If my feelings about cats are related to my bad cat sailing, how come we came 1/3 of the way back in the nats (about 40 boats) after holding top 10 till we had gear failure (and we're faster now)? Those who beat us include the world A class champ last year and about 5 guys who then moved into F 18s and with little F 18 experience, got top 10 in the worlds (beating ALL the Brits). Another pair got 1 & 3 in the F 18 nats (won by the world champ IIRC). So the standard is not too bad.
<>Re "Race at the front of a cat fleet and see how close it really is ,distances are not a good indication of closeness as speeds are much greater , and the old adage is never more true than in cat racing " it aint over till it's over":

I don't know, I find it harder to come back in cats because there's so much laylne chasing. And before you say "ahhh, you must sail a bad cat fleet", look at the results of the F 18 guys we race against. In our club champs last year we were 3rd behind a former A class worlds runner-up and the national Tornado champ. Others in the fleet (who did other things last year) have won 2 worlds.

So if a fleet with 2 world champs and a runner-up is not of high enough standfard to give me a taste of cat sailing, what sort of standard do we have to compete in? Tornado worlds? My crew's done that, too.

Re " just did a couple off back to back races yesterday in an F3 we were flying but more important (speed is only relative ) the racing was a tight as a ducks * rse , my main adversery (an Ex Board Sailor ) and myself pushed the boats to the limits , our hearts pumping like bulls round ALL the course , not a nanoseconds rest , knowing that a hint of error or letting off would be punished severely . Finishing was mere seconds apart. That's what I call racing."

Hmm, in Lasers or Tasars having just one main adversary and finishing seconds apart is NOT a close race!

re "I've raced everything from mirrors as a kid up to two tonners in their hayday before I got into cats and can appreciate all ."

So have I) and so do I, which is why I objected to Forbesie's post in which he basically said only cats were fun. That;s why I launched my diatribe. Given the provocation I think it was reasonable.

"We should all enjoy the relative pros and cons of the amazing selection of high performance dinghies and cats available to us all". Yep, definitely.

<>I was only listing what I personally feel about cats. I tried to point out that these were just personal, and that I can fully understand those who love cats. I wish them well, as long as they don't sit back and insult the rest of sailors.

sorry just the way I read your views and my missinterperatations

I scan too much when reading long rants , just as guilty of writing them too !

thats the wonderfullness of chat groups i guess !

I agree too no one should be insulting to other sailors for what they sail , its only permissable in my book for harmless banter or the unavoidable side effect of missinterperatation of  the written word .