Upwind/downwind right of way

Originally posted by mongrel Originally posted by JimC So what's the difference between a 12 sprit and say a keelboat bow? The bow of keelboat is not about 2" DIA and black, and so is easier to see.

As opposed to a keel boat bow that tapers to a point of about 2mm in diameter and is painted white?

Originally posted by tack'ho How about a rule for fixed bowsprit boats that the last 6 inches need to be a bright colour?

12ft Skiff Rules:

(v) All skiffs using a "fixed pole" system must have an Association Approved "safety orange" stripe at least 100mm long affixed to the pole within 350mm of the outward end.

 

edit: The poles are not painted black... that's what clour carbon is. Paint is heavy!

Anyway, back on topic. It is the duty of every single sailor out there to avoid a collision. For safety's sake, do not put yourself or anyone else at risk to prove a point. Use common sense, and if you feel agrieved then take it to the protest room and apply for redress. Bear in mind a "gentlemans agreement" will not tand up in a hearing.

We can conclude that the problems Iain mentions were not competitors fault but due to the naiveity of the PRO about the velocities these craft travel at . An inappropriate course was set. It is - infact - a testament of the boat handling skills and common sense of all the skiffies on board, that there were no serious collisions.

Edited by Strawberry

Interesting thread this, and some interesting coments made. However if I could add my 4-penny worth...

I do agree that there are issues with starting 12s in a mixed fleet, this is why we specifically asked the PRO at Torbay to give us our own start (which he did for the first race, but then gave up on it). On the start that was mentioned above, we did indeed spot the shift, but we weren't racing the B14s, we were only racing the other 12s, and our main concern was to sit on and cover Design Source. The reason we were going the speed of a Topper, was that we were being squeezed up by boats that point higher than us (a 12 is setup to foot off and drive), hence we were pinching like mad.

On the subject of "are skiffs dangerous", the answer is that they are not dangerous in themselves. I've sailed in a fleet of 30-odd 12s and there were no problems. This is because everyone on the race course had the same machinery and hence understood what everyone else was dealing with.

It's a bit like the question of "are motorbikes dangrous". Most bikers will tell you that their biggest issue is the car driver who's never ridden a bike, and hence doesn't undestand. It's the same with a skiff. Our biggest problem are people in slower "displacement" boats, who've never sailed a skiff, and hence don't have an understanding of what we're working with, and the fact that when going downwind we simply can't just steer where we want to all the time.

As Stuberry says, there were a number of times at that event when we had to dump/bin/get-out-of situations where someone else had put themselves in a position where they were likely to get impailed if we'd kept it going.

The reality is that most problems arise due to a lack of understanding by others. Now I'm not saying that it's their fault or anything, you can't expect someone who's never sailed one of these boats to know any different. It's just the way it is.

To a large degree that's exactly what we do, and upwind a 12 is no less manouverable than any other boat, however the real problems occur on our downwind legs, where a gust could suddenly push us down 10 or 20 degrees. This in itself isn't a problem when sailing with other skiffs (as they understand the limitied options that you have and make allowances), but when those people coming upwind on port (when we're going down on stbd) are planning their way around you but don't understand that this can happen (and so don't give themselves sufficient room), this is where the real problems start. We had a couple of really close calls with port tack boats sailing upwind who couldn't (or sometimes wouldn't) keep clear.

I have to agree with the defensive sailing bit; I try it at Grafham with F16's and Tornado's hamming around the courses and the slow boats like FF's and Lasers and other slow boats.

The problem is that we still have boats that will NOT Give way to boats on stbd when we are going down wind at 20-25kts - makes it a bit exciting having to plan around boats that MIGHT not give way, even if they are burdend boat.

 

Originally posted by Skiffybob Exacly my point. It takes them by suprise BECAUSE they're not expecting it, having not experienced it for themselves. Someone who had sailed skiifs, would think on the basis that "this skiff coming towards me might well bear off right onto me, so I'll tack away now just in case and keep well clear". The other dilemma of course is one of when to call starbord when going downhill, as once we've done it we have to hold our course. So as a result, we tend not to call unless we abolutely have to, and then we'll leave it as late as we dare. Not really an ideal situation, but it's what the rule book forces us to do.

No, you mis-uderstand me; some do not GIVE WAY because they cannot be bothered to understand the rules (or they are too stoopid) and don not GIVE WAY.

I have a classic example at Grafham; Sailing along in about 12kts with the Spi up; I was on Starboard; and called so on a FF; they just looked at me as if I was an alien and so I had to go behind them (Luckily I could dump the traveller and flog the kite).

I asked them afterwards why they did not give way; the answer was "you were not on stbd" - totally outragous behaviour and I should have protested.  I did not and I regret it to this day.