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Chris Noble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris Noble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lightweight Canoes
    Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 8:44pm
guys, i dont think its a case of "hijacking" anyway on a forum, yeh sometimes more than one related thread pops up, but it could be from two entirley different stances, if you dont want to contribute then dont....
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Steve Clark View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Steve Clark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 9:34pm

It's a legitimate question to ask whether or not there will be proscriptions against Hydrofoils.

In the 4 international classes in which I am active , there is one( A Cat) that bans hydrofoils outright; one ( I-14) that limits their total surface area; one (IC) that prescribes that the daggerboard be capable of being withdrawn so as to not project below the hull; and one ( C Cat) that makes no procription except that foils must not stick out beyond the max beam.

So there seems like quite a range of options.  Only recently have Canoes started experimenting with rudder foils, and results have been pretty mixed.  Both boats with the option to sail with rudder foils at this year's world championship elected to use conventional rudders. Both were nicely done by front teir competitors (Ellis and Virtue), so it has to be admitted that what works in one class doesn't necessarily work in another or that it takes more than one shot at it to get it right. My own impression is that the IC suffers from a low Sail Area/ Wetted Area Ratio, and and functionally doubling the rudder area is hard to pay for with reduced wave drag on a boat that has very little wave drag to start with.

There has been discussion of hydrofoils in the class, and most feel they would not be successful at the current class minimum weight. Some feel that a fully foiling IC would be extrordinarily difficult to manage, stating that they find the boat hard enough to sail as it is and feeling that going full foiling will intimidate more sailors than it attacts.  The cost of foiling systems is also seen as a major problem. So, those of us responsible for trying to draft new rules which offer a significant advance in performance without adding greatly to the cost of the boat or making it an order of magnitude more complex or difficult to sail, elected to put a single horizontal limit in place, and to extend the rule that requires the withdrawal of the daggerboard to be extended to the rudder as well. This is a practicality and safety issue that insists that the boats remain trolly worthy and don't require being cpasized at the end of the ramp before sailing away.

This is a median position.  It may be a shame that we do not feel it is appropriate at this time to allow for full foiling ICs in the new rule, but that is what we feel is most acceptable to the class at large.  I can appreciate Mr Lord's enthusiasm for hydrofoil sailing, but he isn't a Canoe sailor or a Canoe owner and doesn't have any stake in the future of the Canoe class. I am in the exact opposite position, having competed internationally in the class for 27 years, built over 50 canoes, and organized two World Championships.  

Now, I am confident that once the dust settles and we are sailing lighter boats, some of our intrepid members will put hydrofoils under the IC and will see what happens.  At that point we certainly can review our position and take action if necessary. 

I hope this answers the question of hydrofoils civily and completely.  I hope the answer and rationale is acceptable to all.

SHC

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Doug Lord View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Doug Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 12:16am
Great response Steve; thanks. Would it be possible to allow foils by not banning them as long as they meet the criteria of not sticking below the hull when retracted and for a finite time like two years to give enough time to evaluate whether or not they're good for the class-and then vote up or down?
Maybe foilers during this period could race with other boats on some sort of handicap basis?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 12:45pm
It will be - as ever - down to what the folks with boats and votes want to vote for. If 500 foiler enthusiasts round the world were to build ICs over the next three months, get them measured and registered and join the association doubtless it could have an effect on what the voting passes!

In my experience the best way of getting a new concept that requires a rule change in a box rule class is to for some one who is a member of that class and participating widely to modify a boat with the experiment and let folks sail it. Then if it gains wide acceptance it will go through sooner or later, if not then it won't.
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Chris Noble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris Noble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 5:09pm

Prime example being the Moth there

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 2wiresorseat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 6:03pm
Is a super skinny, lightweight, moth hull harder to sail with foils than without? Is it just the foil that makes it so difficult or is it the tiny hull?
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Chris Noble View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris Noble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 7:28pm
the lowriders are much harder to sail than a foiling moth, as its supposed to be fairly easy to learn once you know how to sail an ordinary moth, however if you cant sail an ordinary moth, then good luck to you trying a foiling moth first time out.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by 2wiresorseat

Is a super skinny, lightweight, moth hull harder to sail with foils than without? Is it just the foil that makes it so difficult or is it the tiny hull?


I don't sail a Moth, but I know lots of the guys. Its a bit difficult to tell, because unless you can sail a lowrider to a reasonable standard you'll never get up on foils... The typical foiler Moth is not supposed to be the most difficult Moth of all time to sail. Some find that when they have a lowrider sussed they can manage a foiler without too much extra hassle, and find the boat easier up on the foils. Others have more trouble. Wind conditions make a huge difference, shifty and gusty is loads trouble from what I hear.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Doug Lord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 7:43pm
I haven't sailed a Moth but I have sailed my own 16' foiler with about the same beam to length ratio as an IC and 80% more SA. It doesn't work right yet and as a singlehander is a handfull.I believe that when some of the nit picking problems are corrected it will be a piece of cake for any competent sailor. That's my assesment based on no previous monofoiler experience and about an hours time on a Rave foiler.
The url below is very interesting reading from a guy who just took up Moth sailing after a seven year absence from any high performance boat sailing. One sentence of his ,here paraphrased, is that
sailing a Moth lowrider is hard and sailing a Moth foiler is "#$%$ing hard". That sentiment seems to be shared by a number of Moth sailors. I've talked to a couple of guys deeply involved in Moth foiling who say that while it is very difficult to learn to sail a low rider Moth the
transition to foiling is a piece of cake. So there are different opinions about the subject in different parts of the world.
Take the time to read the folowing article-it is very well done:
http://culnane.navidat.com/dc/moth/frame.jsp?url=/dc/moth/pr j/DiamondFoil/index.jsp

Edited by Doug Lord
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