New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: RRS 18 Rule change proposal
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

RRS 18 Rule change proposal
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RRS 18 Rule change proposal
    Posted: 26 May 22 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 

Another way to consider that is that *by definition* you cannot be (clear) behind if you reach the zone first. 
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 May 22 at 8:39am
I think most folks have simply thought of it as the boat behind not getting mark room when there's no overlap. It's not, after all, really an inside boat if there's no overlap!

With the rules as they are the trouble with any attempt to break overlap by a big change of course at the last second is the "last point of certainty" rule - the presumption that if its uncertain that an existing overlap was broken just before the zone then it wasn't and vice versa.




Edited by JimC - 26 May 22 at 8:41am
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 210 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 10:05pm
Interesting that I've never considered the outside boat to get mark room while being the outside boat purely by being clear ahead. 

Tactically if you were overlapped outside approaching the zone you could head up massively to ensure you're clear ahead, all be it not heading anywhere near the mark.

Here boat 1 would get mark room from 2?
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 9:40pm
AIUI with the current rules boat 1 gets mark room from 2 & 3, being clear ahead when a boat reaches the zone, and boat 3 gets mark room from 2.

If I understand the experimental rule correctly then boat 2 gets mark room from 1 & 3, and boat 1 mark room from 2.

It would be interesting to hear the logic, and also how the last point of certainty principle would be handled, since I should have thought it rather hard to judge which boat had entered the zone first with widely separated boats like the sketch. We do need to remember, though, this is just a test rule, its not even got as far as being a proposed change.
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 8:14pm
Me too, but the helm put the boat there, then had a strop, threw the tiller at me and said if you can do better, carry on.
Robert
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by 423zero

If I was boat 1, I would go another boat length, then gybe and blast the for the mark, gybe again for port rounding, sure to beat 2, give 3 a bit of a fright, but should beat her.
If I was boat 1, I'd have gone 'right hand down a bit' swinging my transom around to put 2 in an overlap and demanded mark room. If I was surely clear ahead, I wouldn't be off over there in the first place? If you're steering to miss the mark by 3 boatlengths for no immediate reason, what are you expecting to happen?
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 210 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 7:27pm
I was mainly looking for what the current rules are for boats 1 and 2. 

My understanding is that in the proposed new rules that 1 would have to give room to 2 

18.2  Giving Mark-Room
(a) When the first of two boats reaches the zone,
       (1)  if the boats are overlapped, the outside boat at that moment shall give the inside boat mark-room.
       (2)  if the boats are not overlapped, the boat that has not reached the zone at that moment shall give the other boat mark-room.

They clearly aren't overlapped because 2 is clear astern of 1 at the point 2 reaches the zone. 

My confusion is on the current rules. It sounds as if with 18.2b that even if boat 2 was half way into the zone but 1 is still clear ahead as it reaches the zone 1 is entitled to mark room. 

I think in the real world you wouldn't see this scenario as 1 would just gybe heading for the mark and be overlapped anyway, I'm just curious on how to apply the rules here correctly.




Edited by ClubRacer - 25 May 22 at 7:49pm
Back to Top
423zero View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 08 Jan 15
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 7:13pm
If I was boat 1, I would go another boat length, then gybe and blast the for the mark, gybe again for port rounding, sure to beat 2, give 3 a bit of a fright, but should beat her.
Robert
Back to Top
eric_c View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 21 Jan 18
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 

In that drawing, if marks are left to port, 1 will bear away around about the edge of the zone, either creating an overlap or reasonable doubt.

Personally I would have the whole rule re-written based on a flowchart or something.

I have seen confusion at a leeward mark between asy boats entering the zone from the sides and blow-along boats entering from the top. People's honest, sincerely held beliefs about the sequence of events are often quite different, because they view from different points. Applying the rules is the easy bit sometimes.

I suppose it's a big ask to expect the same rules to work well for skiffs doing 20 knots and mirrors struggling to stem the tide.
Back to Top
ClubRacer View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 26 Sep 15
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 210 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 



Edited by ClubRacer - 25 May 22 at 6:04pm
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy